HBP 20: Lord Voldemort's Request

[seicat]

Mod Note: We've had a mix up in the summaries so we'll be playing catch-up over the next couple of entries. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Chapter 20 Cliff's Notes Version:

1. Ron and Harry get to leave the hospital wing escorted by Hermione.
2. Luna hands out notes from Dumbledore and Gurdyroots which amuses Ron.
3. Hermione looks over finishes Harry's

Comments

[house_elf_44]

If this is what it takes for Ron and Hermione to let go of their feud, I don't want to see them end up together. It seemed odd that Hermione would tell them Ginny and Dean argued. Breaking up I could see. I don't like that creature in Harry's chest, and really wish Jo wrote this differently if it isn't from love potion.

Ron and Luna - she liked him last year, he appreciates her this year, and if they don't see each other at the Burrow, that may be the end of that. Ron says she's insane, but in a good way, so I guess I'm not rooting for them after all. The Interview said that was the last Quidditch match, but that leaves room for Hogwarts to remain open, and Harry either not going back, or going back but hunting Horcruxes instead of playing Quidditch. I think it would be incredible for Harry to do everything he has to do and go to school, too. I'm not sure I can see the trio going off on their own for a year, or living together at Grimmauld Place as a base of operations. But they would be legal adults, and there could be other Order members there too, so maybe.

I'm now seeing R/Hr as nothing more than a relationship competition between them. As Voldemort said, ...envy engenders spite, spite spawns lies. Ron didn't have feelings for Lavender, and Hermione faked going out with McLaggen.

I was very surprised that Dumbledore never studied Divination. And the way he asked if Harry tried his best with Slughorn put him in a different light - more like the head of an underground organization than a Headmaster.

At least Harry thought of SPEW this year.

In the second memory, are Voldemort's features distorted from tearing his soul many times, or is it from something else he experimented with? Why aren't Death Eaters and Aurors faces distorted, too?

Professor Voldemort! I can't see him really teaching, and think he just needed to get into the school for a day. I think he'd have a Death Eater be a teacher if it was to recruit students.

I was surprised that Dumbledore and Voldemort had discussed love being more powerful than Dark magic. When and why did that conversation take place? Transfiguration class?

If this 2nd memory is about 10 years after Voldemort graduated, he'd be about 27 then. So that would mean the DADA postion was cursed for about 30 years afterward. That doesn't go with Quirrell having the job for several years until he took a year off to go to Albania.

[cadesama]

In the second memory, are Voldemort's features distorted from tearing his soul many times, or is it from something else he experimented with? Why aren't Death Eaters and Aurors faces distorted, too?

I think it's some other spells he's been experimenting with aside from the Horcruxes -- although even if it's the Horcruxes, that's still quite different from the type of killing the DEs do (Aurors only had permission to kill under Crouch Sr.). We don't know what happens to the soul after it tears if you don't make a Horcrux, but it makes sense to me that the bit of soul stayed tenuously attached rather than disappearing or going adrift. Of course, a physical transformation due to having split your soul, seems to imply a person having less soul, which in turn implies the soul being finite in the first place. Which is weird to me.

[woman_ironing]

I don't like that creature in Harry's chest, and really wish Jo wrote this differently if it isn't from love potion.

I agree! It makes me cringe with embarassment whenever I read it. Is it supposed to be some sort of metaphor for sexuality because Harry can't quite bring himself to examine his feelings for Ginny too closely? Or is it some macho male thing that, being female, I don't understand? It just doesn't adequately express whatever it is that Harry is feeling, not like JKR's handling of the Mirror of Erised in PS or Sirius in PoA etc.

[house_elf_44]

To me, this is a perfect example of Jo's writing being "Emma meets Alchemy".

The monster goes with a description for the Chemical Wedding, which the first time is rather beastly, and refines to a higher level on each cycle through the steps, ending with "divine love essence".

It's no secret I like the love potion theories, so the effect of LP is a good excuse for Harry to have beastly feelings that wouldn't normally be his, and don't look like true love. That also would produce a twist.

This is my third read through, and I have not hit anything that makes this impossible. The anvils can all be interpreted at least two ways.

[rainfletcher]

Considering how much of the other symbolism has been shot down, I'm reluctant to consider an alchemy theme. Though I believe a chapter or three back you mentioned that JKR had hinted that the alchemy symbolism might have some legitimacy after all -- by any chance could you direct me to where this was said?

If not, could you summarize a bit?

I'd be ever so grateful.

Jo and Alchemy

[house_elf_44]

Things that point to Jo using alchemy, would include:
* having Harry be a seeker, which is what alchemists are called, trying to catch a golden orb,
* having Dumbledore being known for his work in alchemy, and having the first book be about a Philosopher's Stone, which is what alchemists try to make and/or become,
* saying Neville was "so nearly King", which means Harry is the king, another name for the raw material to become the stone, or the Philosopher's Stone itself,
* saying that the 4 houses represent the 4 elements of fire, earth, air and water. John Granger pointed out that it was unfortunate that Emerson went off on a romantic question right after Jo explained how the 4 houses represent the 4 elements, or we might have even clearer confirmation,
* and the goal of enlightenment in alchemy is to achieve divine love, and love is the special power Harry has and will use to vanquish Voldemort.

In HBP, Harry had a text book called Quintessence: A Quest. In alchemy the quintessence is the 5th element, the product of reconciling the 4 quarreling elements into harmonious unity.

Then there is the less recognizable fact that a thread of alchemic symbols goes through all the books, showing the 7 steps of alchemy cycling again and again. She hasn't done it accidentally, because whenever the 4th element to complete a set appears (or an alchemic square) immediately afterward, Harry is enlightened in some way, usually by being given information. The same happens for a square and circle appearing, which represents the Greater Work in alchemy.

Alchemy has 3 main phases, Black, White and Red. 3 characters significant to Harry are named Sirius Black, Albus (white) Dumbledore, and Reubeus (red) Hagrid. Sirius died in what can clearly be seen as Harry's black phase. Hermione is perfectly fulfilling the role of Hermes in alchemy, in being a guide and present throughout the process. A Phoenix is a symbol for the Philosopher's Stone, or gold. It's all too much to be coincidence.

Alchemy isn't called hermetic and arcane knowledge for nothing - I have not yet found a book that spells it all out as easily as I'd like. For starters, you can go to amazon.com and page through Lyndy Abraham's "A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery". Just skim the list of terms in the book, and you'll see that most of them are in the story.

Jo said The Little White Horse is the book that most influenced her writing. It is known to be written in alchemic imagery, and if you read it, you will see many of the same things in that book and Harry Potter. Alchemic imagery is a traditional part of British Literature, which she must have studied with what I've read of her education. John Granger has a similar education, and he knows alchemy. The Inklings all used alchemic imagery, so you will be able to see it in Tolkien's and Lewis' writing, too.

From what I've read, it's been around for hundred's of years. People who were more agrarian and in touch with nature supposedly inferred the symbolism automatically. It's our modern society that doesn't interact with nature as extensively that has to look it up in a book.

I started looking into alchemy to see if it was really in Harry Potter. I haven't come across anything that doesn't fit, or is used incorrectly. It's too ingrained in the story for me to believe it's a coincidence.

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm
This is a link to part of The Interview. Search for the word "lake" and you'll get to the part about the 4 Houses without having to read much.

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=84
This is a link to the FAQ where Jo says Neville was "so nearly King".

Re: Jo and Alchemy

[rainfletcher]

Thank you! Fascinating stuff all around.

[cadesama]

::shrugs:: Seems like a straight forward penis metaphor to me.

Replies then rambles

[woman_ironing]

Yes, lol. But in his chest?! And it's so coy. I suppose it shows that these feelings are outside Harry's control, but then just about everything in his life/the story is outside his control. It also makes the feelings seem outside him. Hence the love-potion theory, mirroring Merope and Tom senior. But is it credible that Ginny is so manipulative as to potion Harry while still going out with Dean?

Re: Replies then rambles

[house_elf_44]

But is it credible that Ginny is so manipulative as to potion Harry while still going out with Dean?

I think it's possible considering the various things she's done over the years.

And there are at least 3 versions of the love potion theory out there: Ginny doing it on purpose, Ginny unknowingly using love potion in a perfume bottle, and Hermione did it somehow to match make. I can see all three scenarios working, and haven't truly decided which one is my favorite. But I think the "unknowingly" version is the one Jo would be most likely to use, and would produce the most suspense in book 7, making us wonder if Harry will still like Ginny without love potion.

Going with the belief that these books have no room for extraneous information, I think the twin's shop having a new clerk named Verity (truth) is because she's going to reveal that Ginny is using love potion. She also provides a way for Ginny (or Hermione) to buy WWW love potion products without Fred and George knowing.

Re: Replies then rambles

[seicat]

Another possibility someone brought up was the "unusual perfume" Ron gave Hermione for Christmas. Amortentia would be "unusual" if someone thought it was a perfume. Also, we know Fred and George kept extra stocks and unfinished products in their old rooms. What if Ron went looking in there for a present. Or, even worse, the twins used him as a guinea pig.

Re: Replies then rambles

[house_elf_44]

Yeah, Ron's gift going from Hermione to Ginny is part of the "unknowingly" theory, with either Ron nicking it from the twin's stock, or the twins giving it to him as a joke. I could see Hermione giving it to Ginny while encouraging her to move on and date other boys. I guess Ginny could have picked up a bottle around the house, too.

Hermione says the twins sell a dozen kinds of love potions. I don't think Ginny is wearing Amortentia, or Harry would be smelling treacle tart and a broomstick handle, too, or whatever his 3 favorite things are at the time. Hm, does it always make you smell 3 things? I think she's wearing a weaker and therefore, more subtle love potion, and it's made her popular with the boys.

[annearchy]

The "unusual perfume" is my personal favorite possibility. It would be an unwitting way for several people to be affected by a relatively weak love potion (compared to Amortentia). I got the feeling that Hermione did not like the scent of the perfume Ron gave her in OotP, but was trying not to hurt his feelings and so didn't tell him that directly, so she just described it as "unusual". This would also (IMO) make an interesting tie back to OotP; we now know that the Vanishing Cabinet stuff in OotP was not a throwaway, but became a major plot point in HBP. Wouldn't it be interesting if the "unusual perfume" turned out to be a plot point...but of course now we won't find out until Book 7.

Re: Replies then rambles

[cadesama]

It also makes the feelings seem outside him.

Very true, but that's arguably in character for Harry. Much of his anger in OotP is described in a fairly detached way, which led to theories that most of the anger was actually bleed through from Voldemort. Harry is simply deeply unintrospective, in my opinion, and I think that's what leads to him somatizing most of his emotions and/or acting as though they are from an outside source.

Given that Ginny admits that dating other boys when she hadn't given up on Harry was pretty much a ploy to attract his attention? I think it's credible for the character to slip Harry a love potion while dating someone else. I don't really think it's a credible plot twist, though.

[annearchy]

And JKR was too timid to write anything about REAL sexuality... so she elevated the monster's location in Harry's body. Monster = trouser snake. Well, she couldn't possibly write that in a "children's book", could she?? ;) Though honestly, aren't there a lot of 11- and 12-year-old boys reading these books? I suppose they could be sniggering about this too.