HBP 19: Elf Tails

Sep 02, 2005 22:10

Harry, Hermione, Fred, George, and Ginny gather around Ron's bed int he hospital wing. Fred and George had been in Hogsmeade to look into buying Zonko's and to surprise Ron on his Birthday. Well, um... Surprise! They all speculate on what could have happened, Ron croaks -_-' and Hagrid makes a hasty entrance. (He was reading to Aragog.) ( Read more... )

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cadesama September 3 2005, 04:53:42 UTC
Contrast the number of visiting family members Ron gets with the number that Colin, Justin, and Hermione got. Guess only wizarding parents are allowed to make sure their kids are alright.

I'm not seeing why Ron getting poisoned is unbelievable. Maybe if it weren't Hagrid, who was at Hogwarts both times the Chamber was opened, it wouldn't sound so stupidly naive. Or maybe there's some crazy mind control spell that convinces all the characters that contrary to all of the events in the past five books, Hogwarts is safeSince Harry's saved so many Weasleys, does that mean he owns them? I think it ought to ( ... )

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madderbrad September 3 2005, 05:13:58 UTC
Guess only wizarding parents are allowed to make sure their kids are alright.

Good one. Although Hogwarts does have 'Muggle repellent' charms on it, I think, which protects it from Muggles. Maybe it's flat out impossible for a muggle to visit the castle. Do we have a situation in canon where a Muggle has visited Hogwarts?

I know some H/Hr folk were using the fact that Hermione didn't visit Harry as an example of an abberation demonstrating the (bad) characterisation of her in HBP (a view which I support, btw). I think every other time he's been in the medical wing she's shown up, along with Ron.

Since Harry's saved so many Weasleys, does that mean he owns them? I think it ought to.

Why? Harry's a hero, he has a 'saving people thing', he doesn't charge for his services. Has the whole idea of a 'life debt' ever been DEFINED in canon? Why should he 'own' the Weasleys, please? You want him to give them orders like he does Kreacher? :-)

Dumbledore is willing to put the entire school in the line of fire (just, actually, as he ( ... )

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cadesama September 3 2005, 06:26:59 UTC
Maybe it's flat out impossible for a muggle to visit the castle. Do we have a situation in canon where a Muggle has visited Hogwarts?

We have Filch, and there's no substantive proof that Squibs are any different from Muggles, excepting their magical heritage. But Muggles from the outside world? Nope. It's neither happened, nor been explained why it doesn't happen. Since the anti-Apparation wards can be lowered on a localized scale, I don't see why the anti-Muggle ones couldn't be to allow Muggle parents to visit injured or sick children.

Why should he 'own' the Weasleys, please? You want him to give them orders like he does Kreacher? :-)

Er, I was entirely joking. But jokes about Harry finally "having" a family of his own spring to mind as a good enough reason.

Do we know for sure that Dumbledore knew about Malfory's mission to assassinate him? Is that the sin to which you are referring?The short answer to your question is yes. I do think we've got enough information to assume that Dumbledore knew in advance of the siege, ( ... )

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madderbrad September 3 2005, 07:24:09 UTC
We have Filch, and there's no substantive proof that Squibs are any different from Muggles, excepting their magical heritage.

No, we've got clear proof that Squibs are different from Muggles - Mrs. Figg could see Dementors. Muggles can't. It's no jump at all to then reason that, likewise, Squibs can see Hogwarts, although Muggles can't. So I think one could postulate that Muggles just can't enter Hogwarts, full stop. Maybe the Founders' magic is too strong to affect for special cases or temporally localised restrictions.

The incident with Ron likely confirmed to him that he was the target, and that multiple people may be caught in the crossfire. Instead of acting, Dumbledore again bides him time -- possibly leading to the argument with Snape.

Thanks for detailing your case against Dumbledore. I'm thinking you were happy with the final outcome in the book? :-)

The problem is, there's no proof that Draco was the culprit, was there? My memory of HBP is really fading, but Slughorn didn't know that Draco had given him the ( ... )

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cadesama September 3 2005, 07:54:57 UTC
No, we've got clear proof that Squibs are different from Muggles - Mrs. Figg could see Dementors.

I've always assumed that Mrs. Figg was lying. She gives her account "as though she had learned what she was saying by heart" (144US, hardcover), mistakenly describes the dementor as "running", and when asked directly if she saw the dementors she says, "that's what happened." Which, you know, isn't definitive proof, and I can't remember if JKR ever clarified on her site or in interview. Hmm, looks like she did. I knew there was a reason I was so sure Mrs. Figg was lying.

Without proof Dumbledore might not have felt that he had the right to expel or prosecute the boy. After all, innocent until proven guilty, etcetera. I acknowledge that the rule of law in the Wizarding world is very malleable, but even so, Dumbledore's principles - or knowledge that he could be overridden by the school governors (is Malfoy still a governor?) - might have prevented him from summarily ejecting Draco.I think it would be awfully tough for Lucius to be a ( ... )

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madderbrad September 3 2005, 10:31:21 UTC
I've always assumed that Mrs. Figg was lying.

I remember she fumbled the bit about seeing them, but then convinced Madam Bones with her description of how it felt. However ...

... I can't remember if JKR ever clarified on her site or in interview. Hmm, looks like she did. I knew there was a reason I was so sure Mrs. Figg was lying.Excellent! Although it's cheating, sort of, by using out-of-band discussion with the author. Which is why I hate everyone saying "Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry" when their main proof is JKR saying "Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry" in the infamous interview, rather than being about to prove it from the meager screen time she has in the books. But that's another story/whinge ( ... )

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cadesama September 3 2005, 19:57:52 UTC
Which is why I hate everyone saying "Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry" when their main proof is JKR saying "Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry" in the infamous interview, rather than being about to prove it from the meager screen time she has in the books.

Heh, let's just say I agree, and leave it at that. The whole off the pages evidence and disproving of theories thing leaves me a bit bold, since I think that truly important matters should be resolved in the books -- anything else is just careless writing. It's fine if she wants to tell us birthdays and favorite colors, resolving debates that way is stupid and frankly a bit control freakish.

if he were a solicitous headmaster truly concerned for his pupils' well-being he should have instigated an investigation, called in the Aurors, conducted a shackdown of the kids' dormitories, etcetera. Although principals can't even do that without 'proof', can they, or have I been watching too many American TV shows?Well, I have no idea what the law is in Britain, but the American tv ( ... )

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cadesama September 3 2005, 07:57:51 UTC
I'm thinking you were happy with the final outcome in the book? :-)

Heh. Very happy. Although rather miffed about all the wailing and gnashed of teeth from the characters. To be expected, though.

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madderbrad September 3 2005, 10:36:08 UTC
Really amazing/interesting how large slabs of fandom can go off in totally different directions from the author, isn't it? I'm assuming that JKR would think any anti-Dumbledore fans are 'deluded', just like the H/Hr crowd? I'm pretty sure we're supposed to love Albus. Has she addressed this sentiment anywhere? Just curious, I'm drifting off the chapter a bit, hope this isn't a problem.

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cadesama September 3 2005, 19:57:38 UTC
Well, it's no problem for me. ;)

I really have no idea how she thinks of the anti-Dumbledore crowd. I do think she intends for us to love the character, and sees that some people don't, but I just don't think she has any estimation of why anyone wouldn't. In interview she said that her sister thought Dumbledore was awfully callous, and didn't exactly imply that she thought her sister was deluded for thinking so. She actually sort of admitted to it, but seemingly as an endearing quirk, or just a funny read of the book from her sister.

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house_elf_44 September 5 2005, 01:04:09 UTC
The problem is, there's no proof that Draco was the culprit, was there? My memory of HBP is really fading, but Slughorn didn't know that Draco had given him the beverage, did he? Without proof Dumbledore might not have felt that he had the right to expel or prosecute the boy. Madam Rosmeta under Imperius was the missing link until Draco confessed on the tower ( ... )

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schtroumph_c September 3 2005, 09:19:54 UTC
One possibility is that Dumbledore actually did order Snape to stop Draco, as he tells Draco on page 588, and that the ensuing argument was over Snape not wishing to violate the Unbreakable Vow.

I don't think so. Snape wanted to stop something he swore to do, and something which a) he was doing since a while, b) had to do later, but lost the nerve.

But I'm sure DD knew it was Draco, after Harry told him his suspiscions.

And if the Snape and Draco's discussion made him doubt of Snape, and Snape kinda confirm he doesn't want to spy anymore, and DD thought he convince him to go on. Maybe he had a plan for play Snape, but Snape was better.

Ooh, I don't want to believe to a evil!Snape, just because he's a carbon copy of Tom Riddle Jr.

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cadesama September 3 2005, 19:47:06 UTC
I don't really think so either, but I think it's a possibility and one that hasn't been widely discussed. It doesn't necessitate either evil!Snape nor good!Snape, so I think it's an interesting middle ground.

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house_elf_44 September 5 2005, 00:50:23 UTC
I know some H/Hr folk were using the fact that Hermione didn't visit Harry as an example of an abberation demonstrating the (bad) characterisation of her in HBP (a view which I support, btw). I think every other time he's been in the medical wing she's shown up, along with Ron.

Yes, this makes no sense. She never missed for Harry before, and if she likes Ron, she has a perfect excuse to be with him without letting on. We weren't given a good excuse later, either. Sometimes I think there's half a chance this is Polyjuice Hermione.

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pilly2009 September 3 2005, 18:44:51 UTC
Contrast the number of visiting family members Ron gets with the number that Colin, Justin, and Hermione got. Guess only wizarding parents are allowed to make sure their kids are alright.Weird. Hogwarts=cult comparisons are starting to make an odd sort of sense. We've seen so many wizarding parents come up to the school to check on their kids, or just come for an open-house thing (Third Task): the Weasleys, Delacours, Diggorys, Krums, Montagues, Malfoys... and not one Muggle parent. Although we can't be as sure for Colin and Justin (because both sort of drop out of the story after they're hit by the Basilisk), Hermione's case suggests that Muggles can't get into Hogwarts. Squibs can, but the difference is that Squibs are actually aware of the magical world, whereas we're always being told that true Muggles ignore any hints or possibilities of magic. Maybe that's the key...you have to actually know that Hogwarts is there to get around the repellant charms ( ... )

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cadesama September 3 2005, 20:11:27 UTC
Although we can't be as sure for Colin and Justin (because both sort of drop out of the story after they're hit by the Basilisk

We can't, but I think the fact that Montague's parents were brought into the story where they could have easily been ignored does contrast with Colin and Justin's situation.

Maybe that's the key...you have to actually know that Hogwarts is there to get around the repellant charms?

It easily could be. Mental state does play into a number of spells. Or it could just be that the Headmaster of Hogwarts -- who presumably has control over the school's protective spells -- can write exceptions into the spells. Of course, the spells may no actually work like computer programs, no matter how much I like using that as an analogy.

so that the parents never see them; yet Petunia gripes on about how Lily was the favourite child of their parents. I can imagine them being proud of her and her magic, but I can't see how she would be a favourite if she wasn't even home over half of the time.I read a theory on this once ( ... )

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