HBP 5: An Excess of Phlegm

[seicat]

Harry and Dumbledore end their broom shed tryst with that flighty temptress, adventure (Yeah, let's see how long we can keep this gag going...) and knock on the back door of the Burrow. They are greeted by Mrs. Weasley and, oddly enough, Nymphadora Tonks (sans Atomic Pink Hair and feeling a bit on the melancholic side. Poor dear.) But Tonks

Comments

[madderbrad]

This is the chapter where I officially decided to entertain the possibility that the book was inferior to some of the fan fiction I'd read. I was devastated by the total lack of dramatic use of the prophecy.

When I read of the prophecy in OotP - remember the prophecy, that which was the grand climatic finale of the fifth book, culminating after 800-odd pages of Harry's various tribulations and suffering? - I thought it was a wonderful plot device boding well for maximum pathos and drama in the sixth book. I've read one or two excellent fan fiction stories which really dragged out the period where Harry agonised over the prophecy on his own (with Ron saying things like "cheer up, Harry! Leave Voldemort to Dumbledore and the Order ... it's not like YOU have to face him again", compounding his panic) and Harry making slips of the tongue which Hermione would pounce on and worry at, as only she could. And then a few other brilliant stories which handled the manner of the revelation of the prophecy marvellously ... ranging from Harry telling just Ron and Hermione in touching and moving scenes to his 'broadcasting' it in novel and dramatic ways to hordes of people. Plus various interpretations on the words comprising the prophecy ... is Harry immortal until it's fulfilled? Once it's been 'discharged' is the surviving party vulnerable again to any attack like a normal wizard? Etcetera.

And then JKR blows it.

Harry waits until he's alone with Ron and Hermione, tells them the prophecy - he's marked for probable death at the hands of the vilest Wizard known - there's a moment of silence - and then in the very next sentence we have a comical moment with Hermione being landed a black eye. I could almost hear the laugh track in the background. Some paragraphs about the telescope, one question about "are you scared?", one about Dumbledore's training (pfah!) and ... that's it.

All that wonderful potential with the prophecy, ruined. Mind you, it had been watered down completely with the Prophet's assumption about his 'Chosen One' (double-pfah!) status in any case.

In a later chapter there's some dialogue with Dumbledore telling him "it doesn't really matter about the prophecy, these things don't mean anything anyway" or something isn't there? That was further on in the book where my lack of belief in JKR was reaching record levels.

I weep for the loss of what could have been made of the prophecy in canon. I'm so grateful for the fan fiction authors out there who used its potential to the fullest in their work.

[pilly2009]

I can see how its potential was destroyed in this chapter (though I, personally, was glad to see it handled with minimum angst), but I think that was what JKR intended. On her website before HBP came out, she basically said that the prophecy was just a bunch of words that made people react in crazy ways. Of course, it could be interpreted a million and one different ways, but the bottom line was that there wasn't supposed to be a lot of stock placed in said prophecy. Destiny is only what people make of it, or something like that.

[house_elf_44]

I finally found a copy of Manxmouse, one of JKR's favorite books she read as a child. This is the main idea she borrowed from that book, that the prophecy could have been ignored. And that's where Snape comes in. By telling Voldemort, he made it so they couldn't or wouldn't choose to ignore it, so he spun the whole web.

I read a transcript of authors discussing HBP, and learned that this practice of borrowing ideas from other books is called a derivative, and that it's accepted as a necessity, since there are only so many things to write about, or something like that.

[madderbrad]

Well I guess I just didn't get it. After reading 800-plus pages of OotP, we're given the prophecy as a BIG DEAL, and I was pleased to take it that way, I loved the idea. And then it's treated as a non sequitur in the sequel. Huh??? Why make that the whole punch-line of OotP if there "wasn't a lot of stock" to be placed in it anyway?

I'm pretty disgruntled over the whole "JKR said" thing. I didn't participate in that side of fandom - swapping JKR quotes, hanging onto her every interviewed word - until after HBP came out. It's a pity that one has to rely on her 'out of band' comments, outside the actual books, to discern her true authorial intent. Mainly I'm thinking of her so-subtle 'deluded H/Hr people couldn't see anvil-sized hints' kicks to the stomach, and her needing to tell us how wonderful Ginny is (since we don't see it in the book - OK, I'll wait until the appropriate chapters come around here, sorry!) but from what you say she felt she had to say something about the prophecy as well? Hmmmph.

[cadesama]

I kind of agree about the prophecy, but only kind of. I think that JKR had backed herself into a corner that she didn't know how to get out of with the prophecy, since she tries so hard to push free will throughout all of the books. However, I think she missed the dramatic appeal of prophecies, and the fact that the best way to explore free will in fantasy is actually with a full-fledged prophecy subplot. I can't judge anything in the first hundred pages or so objectively, though, since I don't see any emotional resonance anywhere. She's just moving everything along, hustling them into place for the plot, and that casts everything into a negative light from my pov.

In a later chapter there's some dialogue with Dumbledore telling him "it doesn't really matter about the prophecy, these things don't mean anything anyway" or something isn't there?

I actually find Dumbledore speech there fairly interesting because there's no way that his beliefs could possibly be anything more than beliefs in their universe. He tries to claim that prophecy isn't real if you don't let it be, but there's a Hall of Prophecy that records true prophecies only, many of which probably got fulfilled without the players ever hearing the prophecies. It's easily testable whether Dumbledore's little hypothesis is true or not, but he never offers any examples to prove his point -- just philosophical musings.

[madderbrad]

It's easily testable whether Dumbledore's little hypothesis is true or not, but he never offers any examples to prove his point -- just philosophical musings.

One of the (many) things that drove me crazy in this book ... Harry being led by the hand by Dumbledore, taking everything quite happily on faith, 'cause he's "Dumbledore's man", don't ya know? Where only two weeks earlier he'd been trashing the man's office. "How did you hurt your hand?". "Oh, although I told you I'd tell you everything, I'll tell you that later/never".

Anyway, yes, you're on the button with that one, thanks - they've got a room full of prophecies, they supposedly *study* the things, but Dumbledore's musings are just words, no examples, no proof, which explains why I dismissed what he said as a casualty of the sort of general outrage that I was feeling that far along in the book.

[cadesama]

Yup, Harry's relationship with Dumbledore drives me nuts too, and he's the good one, as far as I'm concerned. Harry's the only one of any of the good guys who ever questions Dumbledore -- and how does Dumbledore respond? Not by explaining things, but by demanding unconditional trust or Harry will be cut off from the lessons her needs to save the world (I thinking specifically about the Snape trouble before going to the cave). I wish Harry had enough smarts to realize that he holds all the power in dealings with Dumbledore and the Order, and even backbone to use it. The fact that Harry felt guilty about trashing Dumbledore's office made me feel ill.

Anyway, yes, you're on the button with that one, thanks - they've got a room full of prophecies, they supposedly *study* the things, but Dumbledore's musings are just words, no examples, no proof, which explains why I dismissed what he said as a casualty of the sort of general outrage that I was feeling that far along in the book.

Not only are they studied, but they are recorded without the knowledge or consent of the person giving the prophecy. That means that the prophecies have a magical definition, and the folks in the DoM essentially wrote a magical program using that definition to record them as they happen. If Dumbledore had only referenced the dark prophecies in the hall, the ones that don't glow, as proof for his hypothesis I would buy it. But the whole thing is so dismissive of prophecy that it seems like JKR isn't going to revisit it and prove it one way or another. Yet another nugget of wisdom that we're supposed to accept as truth because it came out of Dumbledore's mouth. It's particularly funny to me, because usually the problem with pseudo-science is that there's no feasible way to falsify their theories -- Dumbledore is supposedly debunking "pseudo-magic" that can't be tested because it can't be, yet his theory could be very easily.

[madderbrad]

or Harry will be cut off from the lessons he needs to save the world

Oh, don't get me started on the uselessness of these 'lessons'! I should wait for the appropriate chapter. All that time spent in exploring Riddle's past, largely useless. Harry doesn't need to know what Riddle called his teddy bear at the orphanage, or whether he preferred honey or marmalade on his morning toast, in order to defeat him, I reckon. All that rambling through the memories, being led by the hand by Dumbledore, left me pretty cold. But some people found the Riddle backstory intriguing. Me, I *knew* that Voldemort was evil, please move on and teach him something USEFUL. Oh well.

I wish Harry had enough smarts to realize that he holds all the power in dealings with Dumbledore and the Order, and even backbone to use it.

Oh, THANK YOU! Yet another 'use' of the prophecy, that I think I only saw in one or possibly two fan fiction stories this past year. Without Harry they're all sunk, so he really could turn things around. "You can't expel me from Hogwarts, nyah-nyah!". I'd forgotten that aspect of the prophecy, thanks!

That means that the prophecies have a magical definition, and the folks in the DoM essentially wrote a magical program using that definition to record them as they happen.

Nice. I've often wondered how much JKR has thought into these sort of things. How the Ministry 'hooks' into the use of magic - recording the prophecies, as you say here, detection of underage magic, tracking the floo network (although I accept I'm probably getting confused with the fan fiction in how floo and apparation is monitored). The registration of magical youth for invitation to Hogwarts. If the ministry can 'write a program' to use the 'wizarding world' API, couldn't the bad guys too? Could anyone eavesdrop on the lower-level functioning of magic in the JKR universe?

But the whole thing is so dismissive of prophecy that it seems like JKR isn't going to revisit it and prove it one way or another.

She'll just answer any questions in out-of-band interviews, as pilly2009 earlier stated that she's already done. Bleh.

[cadesama]

Well, I did like Riddle's backstory, even while I thought it undermined JKR's thematic point about free will. The lessons themselves, which should have featured development in the Dumbledore-Harry relationship really upset me, though. It was clear that JKR thought the relationship was perfect and that we enjoy reading about perfect relationships, instead of seeing development and conflict. If JKR had meant to show us how brillaint Dumbledore was, as well, she failed pretty badly. Dumbledore has had these accumulated memories for most of Harry's life, in all likelihood, and hasn't bothered to do anything until now? Dumbledore would have made so much more sense as a character if she had just gone all the way and made him evil . . .

Without Harry they're all sunk, so he really could turn things around. "You can't expel me from Hogwarts, nyah-nyah!". I'd forgotten that aspect of the prophecy, thanks!

Funny how Dumbledore doesn't believe in the prophecy, yet is training Harry to kill Voldemort, instead of merely training Harry not to die.

I've often wondered how much JKR has thought into these sort of things. How the Ministry 'hooks' into the use of magic - recording the prophecies, as you say here, detection of underage magic, tracking the floo network (although I accept I'm probably getting confused with the fan fiction in how floo and apparation is monitored).

I don't think she's thought much about it, really, otherwise we'd know more about the spells used to counter these things. As it is, we have to assume that there's somehow a good reason that the Ministry can't just send owls to find Voldemort, or set a magic quill to write out his address, or that no one noticed that Harry's Hogwarts letter was addresed to a cupboard. The Floos are apparently managed by the government, so I can see how those are easy to track. Magic, I'm not sure how they track, except possibly by registering all wands. Or, again, writing "programs" that track a specific type of energy that is defined as magic and then planting the programs in objects. Maybe we'd know more about it if Harry took Arithmancy.

If the ministry can 'write a program' to use the 'wizarding world' API, couldn't the bad guys too? Could anyone eavesdrop on the lower-level functioning of magic in the JKR universe?

Nothing stops them, as far as I can see. I would have said that the Death Eaters lack the specific training, but Rookwood worked in the DoM, so he would know how to detect that sort of thing. I don't think anyone could do it, since it's not taught at Hogwarts, but I bet anyone who works in particular divisions of the Ministry, or who knows how to find the right books on the magical theory, could do it.

[renata_hpjc]

I was particularly aggravated about the prophecy because I spent a fair amount of time post-OotP explaining oh-so-patiently to complainers that it didn't *matter* that the prophecy -- the grand Reveal of all of OotP's 800-odd pages -- was rather silly and self-evident to the readers, because the point was the effect it would have on Harry. Even convinced a few people. :)

And then, basically nothing. This scene, played half for laughs, and one later on with Dumbledore where he says the prophecy is irrelevent anyway. Quite the letdown for me.

[annearchy]

Quite the letdown for me too. And JKR really ruined the moment, IMO, with that telescope punching Hermione in the eye. Well, that was probably the first anvil I saw in 6 books.