confusing timeframes
i have questions! questions that need answering! questions concerning timelines!
so. despite not being one to watch a lot of telly, i was a totally avid viewer of Life On Mars. Ashes to Ashes, not so much - but with all the growing excitement about the finale, i got sucked into it all, & watched the last two episodes (despite having watched basically none of the previous three series). i've read people's theories & reaction posts & have managed to piece things together, mostly, & have concluded that the whole 'revelation' was pretty awesome, even if it kind of undermines what i loved most about Life On Mars (the clash between the past & the present in terms of attitudes & methods & people.)
but! there is something i still don't totally get, so if anyone could explain...
gene was shot in 195... 3, was it? so he's dead in 1953, his soul goes shooting up to somewhere outside time & space to hang out until he can move on. he's in limbo, he's got issues, unfinished business, whatever. people have been theorising that he's some kind of st. christopher, archangel michael character, like he was given this role by some sort of higher power, that it's his job, his duty.
people have also theorised that gene's more a kind of 'self-appointed' guardian angel. he's a dead cop whose main issue is that he never got to become the kind of stormin', brash, ledgendary, guy-in-charge he always wanted to be. so in purgatory, or limbo, he sets out to make himself into this thing he never got to be. 'cos purgatory's all about atoning for your sins, in the christian tradition, but we can assume that here, this purgatory is more about finding closure for your antsy, frustrated soul. so the dead cops solve crimes, overcome fears, learn things. basically, finish out their 'lives' as they ought to have done if they hadn't died untimely deaths. then they can move on.
so okay, gene's the self-appointed guardian angel. shot dead in 1953 when he was only, what was it, nineteen, so he's totally not ready to move on. he takes charge. becomes 'the guv' of the coppers' purgatory.
now, if we consider that both sam in LoM & alex in A2A were coppers who died (eventually, after a stint in a hovery, mid-way, coma-existence) & got sent to coppers' purgatory which is also set in the past, & if we consider the final episode's 'iphone cop' who is clearly out of his own time, too, then that begs the question: why is coppers' purgatory set in the past?
is coppers' purgatory governed independently of gene hunt, or does gene hunt control what everything looks like, how everything happens? if he does control it, & it's his creation, his construct (which it seems to be, when keats starts tearing it down) why the actual fuck has gene hunt made his little 'kingdom' of purgatory look like the seventies, and then, in A2A, the eighties?
when gene hunt was shot & sent to purgatory, was it just empty space & stars? let's assume it was, & then he 'created' something based on his ideal; on what he wanted this purgatory place to look like, & what he wanted to be, within it. (that is, a brash, no-nonsense, kicking-doors-down, man-in-charge). so gene hunt creates a world of law & crime, based on what he knew, he takes charge of it, & waits for his new recruits to come through, so he can facilitate the closure of their 'unfinished business' & move them on.
if, however, when gene was shot & sent to purgatory, it WASN'T just empty space & stars, it was an already-constructed 'world' of detectives & crooks where dead coppers had to prove themselves, was it ALSO back in time for gene? it's back in time for alex & sam & the iphone guy, & gene's not special - at least, not at the start, right when he dies. (or is he? god this is confusing.) when gene dies in 1953 & he's sent to purgatory, is his purgatory 'set' in, like, the 1920's? sam's from 2006 & goes back to 1973, so that's a 30-ish year gap. is copper's purgatory a consistent distance in the past from the future?
okay, let's say that, rather than copper's purgatory having existed forever, independently of gene, let's say gene created coppers' purgatory of his own volition. it's his creation, & he re-invents himself, too. in that case, WHY would gene hunt create a limbo world that resembles the 70s when, having been shot in the 50s, gene would have no fucking clue what the 70s would look like, or how people would act. unless, of course, being dead & all (& thus outside of any kind of 'real' time & space), gene hunt suddenly has cosmic powers of seeing & knowing the past & the future & the like, so he thinks "hey, the 70s would be a cool setting for my personal purgatory construct."
i find this unlikely, if you consider how much gene hunt is a product of his time. he has absolutely no knowledge of the kind of developments (political correctness, crackdowns on racism, homophobia, sexism) that occur in sam & alex's 'real-time' worlds.
okay, so maybe gene hunt's purgatory 'began' in 1953, when he got shot. twenty years on, in 1973, when sam turns up, he's become the middle-aged boss he always wanted to be. so do we assume that time moves chronologically in purgatory? (weird, considering purgatory doesn't exist as part of real time or anything, but okay.) do we assume that coppers' limbo started with and because of gene hunt in the 50s, & continues to move on through the 70s & 80s (where we meet sam & alex)?
if we accept this, then coppers' limbo moves chronologically through time. it's not permanently set in 1973, because alex then turns up in the 80s. time's moved on in limbo.
but! in that case, why is limbo 30-ish years out of sync with the real world? there are two possible answers (if we accept the stretchy confused theories i've set out so far) - one, when gene hunt created coppers' purgatory, he 'set' it in the past. why? i have no idea. maybe to have a chance to do things over? maybe he, like sam & alex, needed to see things in their past get fixed. this would then mean that gene 'set' his limbo in, like, the 30s or something (though i'm really not sure how that works out, considering he was nineteen in 1953), & then it moves chronologically on from there, which would explain why when the coppers die, they go someplace that's slightly out of their 'real-world' time.
the second possible answer to the 'why is limbo in the past' question, is that this particular form of limbo (if we take into account what the writers said about how the universe is infinite, so there's enough space in there for people to have a personally-tailored form of purgatory) actually 'started' in 1953 when gene died, but time in limbo doesn't obey the rules of time on earth. maybe one day on earth is a year in limbo, or somesuch. time moves slower in limbo, so that's why it lags behind in the 'past'.
still, it's weird that limbo has all these details that roots it so very firmly in 'real-world' time & place. that is, in LoM particularly, it's totally representative of what manchester in the 70s looks like. limbo is getting all its decorative 'information' from the world of the living. or at least, gene is getting all that information, since it seems to be him making it all up.
so does gene hunt still have a connection to the land of the living? he must have, in some way. otherwise, limbo would be stuck in 1953 forever (which, if you consider the 'accepted' ideas of limbo & purgatory, it does not have a time or a place or a physical manifestation, & if it does, time probably wouldn't move chronologically forwards) because that's when gene died. that's all gene knows. as a dead soul, removed from the world of the living & stuck in purgatory, he would only be able to create a limbo that looks like what he already knows. so either, it'd have to look permanently like 1953, or it would have to be set somewhere in a past that he experienced. so anywhere in the nineteen years previous to his death.
however, both LoM & A2A suggest (they don't suggest actually, since it's the whole fucking premise to the series) that the place where gene hunt is, the place where sam & alex go, is firmly set in a realistic time & realistic location. manchester in the 70s & (if i'm correct, because lol i didn't even watch A2A), london in the 80s. time has moved on.
how the everloving fuck does gene know what the 70s & 80s look like (since it's his construction, after all) if he was never alive IN them, unless he still has some way of knowing what's going on in the world of the living & he thinks "awesome, that's a great song by david bowie, let's pop it into my made-up world."
of course, gene doesn't even know what he's doing anymore until the end of A2A, so either he's still making shit up without realising it, or limbo is still goverened by an independent, higher power that sees all & thus has chosen to make stuff in limbo look like the 70s & 80s, & gene's just living inside it. his only 'construction' is himself, & his role within this purgatory that already exists, ready-made for him to take on his job of moving souls along.
& still, the question remains, even though coppers' limbo moves forward through some kind of time, why is it still set in the past? seriously, who decided that & how the fuck does it work?
okay, that was way fucking longer than i'd planned to make it. hopefully somepeople can explain this to me, or point me in the direction of some theorising that answers these questions. maybe i've missed something vital. (i wouldn't be surprised - like i said, i watched all of LoM religiously, but only caught the final two episodes of the whole of A2A).
my mind. consider it boggled. someone needs to make a bloody timeline or something that takes into account limbo-time, real-world time, the time & eras of death of all the cops, etc, that might help.
or, you know, maybe i'm thinking on it too much & the timeframes aren't important because, hey, we're dealing with fictional representations of pseudo-religious concepts, here. :D
so. despite not being one to watch a lot of telly, i was a totally avid viewer of Life On Mars. Ashes to Ashes, not so much - but with all the growing excitement about the finale, i got sucked into it all, & watched the last two episodes (despite having watched basically none of the previous three series). i've read people's theories & reaction posts & have managed to piece things together, mostly, & have concluded that the whole 'revelation' was pretty awesome, even if it kind of undermines what i loved most about Life On Mars (the clash between the past & the present in terms of attitudes & methods & people.)
but! there is something i still don't totally get, so if anyone could explain...
gene was shot in 195... 3, was it? so he's dead in 1953, his soul goes shooting up to somewhere outside time & space to hang out until he can move on. he's in limbo, he's got issues, unfinished business, whatever. people have been theorising that he's some kind of st. christopher, archangel michael character, like he was given this role by some sort of higher power, that it's his job, his duty.
people have also theorised that gene's more a kind of 'self-appointed' guardian angel. he's a dead cop whose main issue is that he never got to become the kind of stormin', brash, ledgendary, guy-in-charge he always wanted to be. so in purgatory, or limbo, he sets out to make himself into this thing he never got to be. 'cos purgatory's all about atoning for your sins, in the christian tradition, but we can assume that here, this purgatory is more about finding closure for your antsy, frustrated soul. so the dead cops solve crimes, overcome fears, learn things. basically, finish out their 'lives' as they ought to have done if they hadn't died untimely deaths. then they can move on.
so okay, gene's the self-appointed guardian angel. shot dead in 1953 when he was only, what was it, nineteen, so he's totally not ready to move on. he takes charge. becomes 'the guv' of the coppers' purgatory.
now, if we consider that both sam in LoM & alex in A2A were coppers who died (eventually, after a stint in a hovery, mid-way, coma-existence) & got sent to coppers' purgatory which is also set in the past, & if we consider the final episode's 'iphone cop' who is clearly out of his own time, too, then that begs the question: why is coppers' purgatory set in the past?
is coppers' purgatory governed independently of gene hunt, or does gene hunt control what everything looks like, how everything happens? if he does control it, & it's his creation, his construct (which it seems to be, when keats starts tearing it down) why the actual fuck has gene hunt made his little 'kingdom' of purgatory look like the seventies, and then, in A2A, the eighties?
when gene hunt was shot & sent to purgatory, was it just empty space & stars? let's assume it was, & then he 'created' something based on his ideal; on what he wanted this purgatory place to look like, & what he wanted to be, within it. (that is, a brash, no-nonsense, kicking-doors-down, man-in-charge). so gene hunt creates a world of law & crime, based on what he knew, he takes charge of it, & waits for his new recruits to come through, so he can facilitate the closure of their 'unfinished business' & move them on.
if, however, when gene was shot & sent to purgatory, it WASN'T just empty space & stars, it was an already-constructed 'world' of detectives & crooks where dead coppers had to prove themselves, was it ALSO back in time for gene? it's back in time for alex & sam & the iphone guy, & gene's not special - at least, not at the start, right when he dies. (or is he? god this is confusing.) when gene dies in 1953 & he's sent to purgatory, is his purgatory 'set' in, like, the 1920's? sam's from 2006 & goes back to 1973, so that's a 30-ish year gap. is copper's purgatory a consistent distance in the past from the future?
okay, let's say that, rather than copper's purgatory having existed forever, independently of gene, let's say gene created coppers' purgatory of his own volition. it's his creation, & he re-invents himself, too. in that case, WHY would gene hunt create a limbo world that resembles the 70s when, having been shot in the 50s, gene would have no fucking clue what the 70s would look like, or how people would act. unless, of course, being dead & all (& thus outside of any kind of 'real' time & space), gene hunt suddenly has cosmic powers of seeing & knowing the past & the future & the like, so he thinks "hey, the 70s would be a cool setting for my personal purgatory construct."
i find this unlikely, if you consider how much gene hunt is a product of his time. he has absolutely no knowledge of the kind of developments (political correctness, crackdowns on racism, homophobia, sexism) that occur in sam & alex's 'real-time' worlds.
okay, so maybe gene hunt's purgatory 'began' in 1953, when he got shot. twenty years on, in 1973, when sam turns up, he's become the middle-aged boss he always wanted to be. so do we assume that time moves chronologically in purgatory? (weird, considering purgatory doesn't exist as part of real time or anything, but okay.) do we assume that coppers' limbo started with and because of gene hunt in the 50s, & continues to move on through the 70s & 80s (where we meet sam & alex)?
if we accept this, then coppers' limbo moves chronologically through time. it's not permanently set in 1973, because alex then turns up in the 80s. time's moved on in limbo.
but! in that case, why is limbo 30-ish years out of sync with the real world? there are two possible answers (if we accept the stretchy confused theories i've set out so far) - one, when gene hunt created coppers' purgatory, he 'set' it in the past. why? i have no idea. maybe to have a chance to do things over? maybe he, like sam & alex, needed to see things in their past get fixed. this would then mean that gene 'set' his limbo in, like, the 30s or something (though i'm really not sure how that works out, considering he was nineteen in 1953), & then it moves chronologically on from there, which would explain why when the coppers die, they go someplace that's slightly out of their 'real-world' time.
the second possible answer to the 'why is limbo in the past' question, is that this particular form of limbo (if we take into account what the writers said about how the universe is infinite, so there's enough space in there for people to have a personally-tailored form of purgatory) actually 'started' in 1953 when gene died, but time in limbo doesn't obey the rules of time on earth. maybe one day on earth is a year in limbo, or somesuch. time moves slower in limbo, so that's why it lags behind in the 'past'.
still, it's weird that limbo has all these details that roots it so very firmly in 'real-world' time & place. that is, in LoM particularly, it's totally representative of what manchester in the 70s looks like. limbo is getting all its decorative 'information' from the world of the living. or at least, gene is getting all that information, since it seems to be him making it all up.
so does gene hunt still have a connection to the land of the living? he must have, in some way. otherwise, limbo would be stuck in 1953 forever (which, if you consider the 'accepted' ideas of limbo & purgatory, it does not have a time or a place or a physical manifestation, & if it does, time probably wouldn't move chronologically forwards) because that's when gene died. that's all gene knows. as a dead soul, removed from the world of the living & stuck in purgatory, he would only be able to create a limbo that looks like what he already knows. so either, it'd have to look permanently like 1953, or it would have to be set somewhere in a past that he experienced. so anywhere in the nineteen years previous to his death.
however, both LoM & A2A suggest (they don't suggest actually, since it's the whole fucking premise to the series) that the place where gene hunt is, the place where sam & alex go, is firmly set in a realistic time & realistic location. manchester in the 70s & (if i'm correct, because lol i didn't even watch A2A), london in the 80s. time has moved on.
how the everloving fuck does gene know what the 70s & 80s look like (since it's his construction, after all) if he was never alive IN them, unless he still has some way of knowing what's going on in the world of the living & he thinks "awesome, that's a great song by david bowie, let's pop it into my made-up world."
of course, gene doesn't even know what he's doing anymore until the end of A2A, so either he's still making shit up without realising it, or limbo is still goverened by an independent, higher power that sees all & thus has chosen to make stuff in limbo look like the 70s & 80s, & gene's just living inside it. his only 'construction' is himself, & his role within this purgatory that already exists, ready-made for him to take on his job of moving souls along.
& still, the question remains, even though coppers' limbo moves forward through some kind of time, why is it still set in the past? seriously, who decided that & how the fuck does it work?
okay, that was way fucking longer than i'd planned to make it. hopefully somepeople can explain this to me, or point me in the direction of some theorising that answers these questions. maybe i've missed something vital. (i wouldn't be surprised - like i said, i watched all of LoM religiously, but only caught the final two episodes of the whole of A2A).
my mind. consider it boggled. someone needs to make a bloody timeline or something that takes into account limbo-time, real-world time, the time & eras of death of all the cops, etc, that might help.
or, you know, maybe i'm thinking on it too much & the timeframes aren't important because, hey, we're dealing with fictional representations of pseudo-religious concepts, here. :D