A good torture scene never hurts. I guess this is a good time to introduce myself.
SARAH: The fact that Kim's working at the CTU too, is an interesting idea this season. Because, it's sort of like - you’re thinking "Oh, bring her closer to her father so he can watch her." But now she's like in just as much harm, but I guess it sets up, uh...
HOWARD: Well, it was either sort of - it was that or bust. We couldn't do any more cougars with her.
SARAH: Right.
HOWARD: And this is a moment we certainly have been waiting for all season. How to bring Nina back. And I think a lot of it was a function of last year when we had sort of thought we would kill your character, and we couldn't find out a satisfying way to... end that story.
SARAH: Right. Well, it was nice to see, you know, sort of, the results and the influences of where she's been and how she's changed. How I've changed. You know, when I come back.
HOWARD: I think you actually found depths and colors in this character - and we obviously talked about it before you even came on - that we hadn't seen or even thought about before. There's one - well, it's not this episode, so I guess we shouldn't talk about it, but my favorite moment of this season was later when Tony questions you...
SARAH: Oh yeah, right, right. Well, that was a good. I think what was important, too, and you were very helpful in this with me, Howard, was figuring out, ok, now that it's been three years - you know, what does Nina want? And what is she doing? And, the fact that she comes back in contact with Jack is circumstantial. I don’t think it was anything - I keep feeling that I’m going back between she and I - that I would have intended. I think it’s something that I, you know, that part of my life was over and that I wanted to move on. And so that when I come back in contact with him, it's, it's like a whole new set of troubles. And I have to like work my way around it.
HOWARD: Well, it's a little bit also like Kim coming back to CTU. It's not improbable or impossible that these two people who travel in these circles. You know their paths would cross again.
SARAH: Yeah. Well, it's something that I was realizing once we started shooting was that to come back near CTU at all would put me back in jail. Like the fact that I broke my exile to come. So it instantly raises the stakes. I mean, supposedly going to make this deal for my buyer is -- got high stakes enough. But then to come in contact supposedly with CTU again, makes it life or death. So, it was a good setup.
HOWARD: Again, this was another fun complication that in the midst of this we discover that Jack and Clow-diah --
SARAH: Clow-diah. That they've had a --
HOWARD: That they’ve had a history, too. Obviously, this year we really did plum the depths of all these characters - Jack, Nina and really, really, you know, figured out how far they'd go and what they had given up. And who they were. I've never felt more clear about who these people were. I never felt like I knew them as deeply as I do now.
SARAH: I definitely feel too, that it allowed me to go even further into sort of the psyche of Nina and why -- what motivates me now? In in my actions... I mean setting up the next the scenes that are coming up --
HOWARD: Right. I don't think we're spoiling anything. I assume people who are listening, you know, have seen this, but the idea that, you know -- There is, there was a past between you and Jack that was not just cover, but that it really is that intersection between what's a cover and what's real. I mean, there was some reality to the relationship between you and Jack. Not just on your end, and on his end too. And it really came across.
SARAH: I definitely agree. And I think that's what makes it interesting. And you really wanna be able to show that underneath all of everything that's happened there still are two people here. That's what I was really striving was to show you know, Nina is still a person and Jack and Nina are capable of making huge mistakes, I mean Nina more than Jack, obviously, in this case. But that, you kind of try to find the humanity in what they're doing.
HOWARD: But I gotta say later her deep pathology was so -- but she's still yes, she's still a human being. If you cut her, she still bleeds.
SARAH: Every once in a while, you gotta show it.
SARAH: That guy kind of looks like you, Howard.
HOWARD: Hey, what are you talking about?
SARAH: A little bit -- quick glance!
SARAH: You know I was just thinking before that I -- I felt really stupid in that when I was watching I kept wondering why we never got to see the Oval Office? I was like, you know, “He's always in these like random little offices” and then I remembered, “Oh wait! He's in LA!” And then it made me think, “What does the President do when he's in other cities?” You know. He's gotta be -- did he execute business like all over the Country in different offices? Or --
HOWARD: On 24, he does.
SARAH: On 24 he does. He's really good.
SARAH: Aren’t they in public? Now why would they be doing this in public?
HOWARD: Oh God, why do you ask that question?
SARAH: Howard, this is a chance to make us understand.
HOWARD: Let me think for a moment. I don’t know the answer to that. It’s a very good question. Maybe it’s not public. Maybe that’s --
SARAH: Yeah. It was some hotel lobby.
HOWARD: Right. You answered your own question. It’s a Holiday Inn. There’s one lone piano player. Right, with a bowl with three dollar bills in it.
SARAH: The actors really have to know where they are, and what they're thinking because that's what you get half the time. Is what they're thinking and --
HOWARD: Or at least look like they know what they're thinking.
SARAH: Yeah, exactly.
HOWARD: I just admire what you do so much. Because when we write half the time we're not entirely sure. Cause there are some - it is kind of odd sometimes. And it is contradictory.
SARAH: Well, I’m sure. And that's why --
HOWARD: We fight so much?
SARAH: You can't think of every - why you can’t - that's just why I call meetings. (giggles) No. But you can’t think of every possible angle because you’re thinking about the whole. I wouldn't be able to answer all the questions for the character. So, you know, it's nice to know that someone's obsessing on theirs, and they bring in and show you wholes. Like “Oh, what about this, though?” “And what about that?”
HOWARD: No, that's why this thing always winds up being better than - you know, because it is this great collaboration. I love, I love when you have problems.
SARAH: Yeah...
SARAH: Oh my God! This is like so brutal.
HOWARD: This one in particular?
SARAH: Yes, just the torturing, I just, I can’t watch it. Look at his hole [Chase's hand, where he just got shot]! Look at the hole. Oh, it’s so brutal. I just thought Chase did a great job with this stuff, because you believe it. But it’s -- You believe he’s strong and that he can -- that it is believable that he, he can bounce back the way he does. I mean he does the stuff so well. Totally buy it. That’s the thing that always bugs me like when someone --Ouch! When they’ve been hurt -- but then like you see like a hole, and like they’re able to walk really well of a sudden. And then they forget or something. But he doesn’t. And this is like just so like, I can’t even watch. Everyone turn away. It’s just so bad. Oh! Ow! [Chase burns his wound with a hot iron] But again, Chase you pulled it off!
HOWARD: Well, it’s a moment truly inspired by --
SARAH: Wasn’t it like Stallone?
HOWARD: Rambo. Yeah.
SARAH: Isn’t it pathetic that I know that?
HOWARD: Yes, it really is. I’m surprised.
SARAH: You think everything’s cool, and I remember when I, when I read, you know, that she, whatever. Nevermind!
[That's very clear, Sarah! XD]
SARAH: I’m just realizing I don’t think I like come on until the end... Like just commenting...
[*nods*]
HOWARD: I think one of the powers of it - you say you’re not in it until the end - I think, part of the great power of the show, is exactly that, you know. Jack isn’t in it all that, I mean --
SARAH: No, I know. Oh, and it’s not that I -- I wasn’t trying to say that it’s not - It’s just - commenting -- [Sure, Sarah. ;-)]
HOWARD: Oh, that’s true, you just wanted more screen time.
SARAH: No! I just wanna feel like I know what I’m talking about! I’m just kind of like, "Hey, tell me about this. Tell me about that." I was like, "I don’t know"...
SARAH: This is always cool, though, the little green cam and when we - I remember it was a big deal because when we had the continuity of my hair being up and my hair being down, it was like deciding that I had to --
HOWARD: Oh, you because you had to commit to, right --
SARAH: One. And so I was like at some point, “We gotta put my hair up guys. Because, It’s just gonna get ratty.” And - uh, so I made a point, at some point, onscreen - be having my - be putting my hair up so we could commit to the old ponytail. You think about things like that though.
SARAH: This guy was great. My, my... henchman.
HOWARD: Bodyguard.
SARAH: He was very funny. When in the last episode, I was trying to get him to say a line because we had this whole in the back episode. And I was like, “You gotta push this for me, otherwise, it’s just gonna, you know” I said, “It’d be great.” He’s like “Well, I wanna say this.” I’m like, “Just say it!” So then of course, he’s like “Oh, Sarah, you’re gonna get me in trouble.” Or something.
HOWARD: It's 1,000 bucks.
SARAH: But no. He had, he had lines in this one so. He was already a speaking guy. But it’s just something now about lighting and - I forget how hard that is to accommodate. But he was wonderful. And what’s so funny, though is he’s such a tough guy - but when you see, when we get inside there were bats. And he was so scared!
HOWARD: Were there really bats?
SARAH: There was a bat, there was a mouse. And he was like, “Oh my God! There’s a bat in there, we gotta get out of here.” And he was so scared. It was very funny.
SARAH: here you go! Here you’re gonna see - This is when I’m putting the hair up! So that I get to put the ponytail up.
HOWARD: Why is that again?
SARAH: Well, because I just knew it would be away from my face and like they’re always like, “Sarah, get your hair-- ” And I was going to be handcuffed. I knew what was coming up.
HOWARD: See, that’s so smart.
SARAH: I have to think about these things ahead of time. Cause I had short hair, so, now to have long hair again --
HOWARD: Were those extensions? Or were those real?
SARAH: That’s the extensions. My hair’s almost that length now, but - that was a huge discussion, too, you know, because --
HOWARD: I remember it.
SARAH: We wanted me to look really different after three years. And I thought, you know, what better to show the passage of time than the hair. And I also wanted to show, that is was just, you know, a different person.
SARAH: What was really fun, too, is that Jack, er, Kiefer - He’s the one who came up with this next move. You know, I said, “Well, I guess I have to keep my briefcase.” You know, “Do I drop it? Do I bring it in? Because it’s potentially, unless you make me drop it, a weapon.” And, he’s like, “No, that’s exactly right. I think, I turn around, and you clock me with it.” And I thought, “Oh, that’s great! That’s great that he’s gonna let me do that.” And yeah, like he really did that fall into all that stuff.
HOWARD: That’s a great look.
SARAH: It was so satisfying, but it took, I mean, -- you know, it’s a very specific move, and by the end, my arm was killing me. Because like the first time, I was like, “Oh yeah, I can do this,” But like take 20...
HOWARD: What was in it? Was it empty?
SARAH: It was empty. But it’s just the angle. You have to hold it at a certain way for the camera to buy it. Somehow out. And it was like doing a bunch of pushups. But it was fun to do.
SARAH: Make up people loved using all the blood that they did. Making, like warpaint.
HOWARD: I got to admit, we were, I was unconvinced, so I sort of shared your skepticism in terms of a new, and this went through so many different drafts.
SARAH: Exactly. But in terms of what --
HOWARD: What was going on internally.
SARAH: Yeah, and what would make her just not kill him. What would make me not kill him.
HOWARD: There’s a real, and again, there’s some real curiosity going on, here I think.
SARAH: And, I think you realize, too, that I’m completely alone at this point. And how vulnerable that is. In this situation. I don’t know just how interconnected this whole thing is, I mean, if I kill Jack, then I got the Salazars on my ass. I think all of a sudden, you see that she’s so vulnerable. I’m so vulnerable.
HOWARD: I think what’s really good here, also is the idea, that she’s really taking his temperature. I mean, it’s almost like “Oh, Jack, you finally are coming into the place that I have been at for such a long time. Man!”
SARAH: Yeah. Well and I think it would be reassuring to think that I would have him on my side.
HOWARD: Right. But on your side, meaning that he’s been disabused of all these illusions that he’s been toiling under for all these years... Patriotism, good and bad...
SARAH: Exaclty, that’s what I mean. It’s like she thinks that he’s changed, and that he is as desperate as I might have been at that moment, that I did. That’s reassuring. And, the money, and what that meant for me to be able to, have that much power to change my life.
SARAH: I think, at that point to, I’m still deciding. I’m still like which would be more helpful for me.
HOWARD: That’s just a moment that we write. And it’s just a line, and then it becomes this huge moment that really, you know, becomes very defining.
SARAH: Yeah, and I remember, the director was very specific about the moment after, too. And what he thought would be the clearest. And it was very helpful for me. I think the thing that’s the most important, too, is that we see where this now goes, is really, you know, we wanted to make it believable. But also give people, sort of - I guess what, in terms of, you know what everyone is saying, you do see the history between the two of them when Jack and I are together. You see how well they work together. And so leading up to this encounter, there are so many questions to be answered, and so many things you want to see played out in some ways, and what’s amazing about you guys, is that you do. You, you write something that puts people in a position of “Oh God! I think it would go like that.” Or “Oh! That’s surprising that it does go like that.”
HOWARD: And even the more uncomfortable, you know, this is a moment -- we designed this whole episode was around the moment that’s coming up between you and Jack. And getting there was a contortion and in the end really helped, I think, sell it. But, it was just too good not to do. I think that’s what you felt when you had some initial objections. Because I don’t think we had actually earned it quite as well in that draft. I think that it was a process.
SARAH: Oh definitely. And also, it’s setting up, too, the tension, of we don’t know what’s around the corner. We don’t know when Amador’s supposed to be there. We don’t know if someone else is gonna come and intercept the buy, the exchange.
HOWARD: How am I gonna play this?
SARAH: This is interesting, too, as much as they played this out. I mean, the pauses. They like, "Nooooo!"
HOWARD: You mean the editors? Or do you mean, or?
SARAH: The editors. Cause when we shot it, there weren’t --
HOWARD: It was faster?
SARAH: The pauses. These pauses weren’t as big. They extended it a little bit. This is where it’s sort of like -- these are surprisingly a different - you know, we did it 3 or 4 times. And they extended this for a while. But it’s good. It works well.
HOWARD: And of course, I mean, the big question is, “How far are we gonna take this, in this episode?”
SARAH: And what is so funny, though, is like these different takes we did. I mean, at first - it’s like this is one of the last ones we did, where we slowly, slowly went in, because it was. “Oh my God. How do we play it?” Because I think the first one we were just like, “Oh, let’s just get this over with.” And you just didn’t know how to deal with it. But then...
HOWARD: Here we are.
SARAH: Here we are.
HOWARD: Well, what’d you think? No, I mean, that was really the moment, and we said, the whole episode was designed - we want these two to kiss. We wanted Jack to have to do what is probably the most difficult thing for him to do. And, difficult, not because it’s difficult, because he actually, part of him liked kissing her once upon a time. Which is probably the greatest sin of all...
SARAH: Right. Well, and viceversa.