Ok, this has been dwelling obsessively on my mind for a couple days now...

[porn_into_this]

But I don't believe people who say they date FTM's or MTF's and respect them as their identified gender, but could never date the 'cis' version because they hate cock or pussy. I just don't buy it. This idea that hey, boys are really hot, but sperm just turns me off too much so I date my local transguy... Eh, seriously? If somebody would like to

Comments

[quiregrrl]

Yeah, even as i was typing I was wondering if I was actually answering your question or not...

I'm feeling your frustration, but don't worry I ain't taking it personally or feeling attacked :)

I should have said upfront, but I'll do it now... I don't have the answers, I only know what makes sense to me...

Ok, so we agree that gender is not defined by genitals. Good starting point.

What does define gender then? I'm not sure that I can adequately articulate it, and I suspect that it's a bit different for everyone anyway... but whatever it is, there is a difference between cismale and transmale genders, in my experience and opinion. So yeah, you're right in that I am attracted to queers, but queer is not a gender, except when it is, and when it is then yeah i'm attracted to it, but if a mans gender is cismale, then regardless of how queer (in the non-gender sense) he is I don't find him particularly attractive. It's not about the genitals, and it's not because his gender-identity is more or less than any other gender-identity, it's just that it's not a gender-identity that appeals to me - because of all the other intangible things that define gender.

I was only half-serious above about the big gay leather daddy... that's more about fetishising and fantasising of big gay leather Daddies, and while such a creature, if they were to hit on me, would be more likely to hear "yes" than any other cismale, in reality I'd probably still say no. Because cismale is not a gender that appeals to me generally speaking, however it may be packaged and however queer the owner of that cismale gender identity may be.

Does that make sense?

[porn_into_this]

Yes, it does if you are attracted to only certain genders of trans-men as well. Not all transmen are gender fluid, I am not for example - although certainly by my appearance and some of my behavior people might assume otherwise. But if you would be as unlikely to date a transsexual male as a cis-male, then I could understand that.

[quiregrrl]

Can you explain what you mean by "Not all transmen are gender fluid, I am not for example - although certainly by my appearance and some of my behavior people might assume otherwise."?

I know what I understand from it, but I'm interested to know what you mean.

[porn_into_this]

As in - I started hormones relatively recently and I do, at times, wear womens clothing for my work...so people might be led to believe from my gender ambiguous appearance and fagginess and etc that I have gender fluid tendencies but I actually don't. I'm a feminine man. At no point identify as something other than male, and if someone where to try and hook up with me thinking I was some kind of magical gender fairy (and I don't think genderqueer people are that just a common cis interpretation of that identity) they would be very disappointed because I am as binary as every other gay man.

And if someone wouldn't date a gay man they shouldn't date me, just because my dick doesn't usher forth semen.

[quiregrrl]

Thanks for clarifying that for me, I appreciate you taking the time to actually engage in some conversation.

From what I understand regarding how you view gender I would have to agree that by your definitions the trans men in my life are more gender fluid than you, and it seems a number of other guys on this forum, identify as.

As I said above, I don't have the answer to your question, I can only put forth my point of view. I don't claim it to be The Absolute Truth of Trans, I don't claim it to fit everyone, but I do claim it as mine. It's my experience and my understanding and my knowledge based on the people in my life.

I hope at some point you can find an answer to your question that makes sense to you.

Thanks for the conversation.

[quiregrrl]

I suspect that a lot of the frustrations and disagreements and lack of clarity around these types of discussions comes down to the fact that everyone is working with their own definitions of words, and ways of being, and ways of doing, and we all just get lost in semantics while principally agreeing with each other.

You have fun enjoying your fetishes too!

[mresundance]

I'm sure a bajillion other dudes are going to chime in on that last point:

BUT WE ARE NOT A FUCKING FETISH, THANK YOU.

That is so many disgusting levels of creepy I'm surprised I'm being this restrained about it. I should tell you to piss off.

BUT WHATEVER.

[quiregrrl]

Oh for fucks sake...

No, you're not. I never said you were. And I don't believe I have ever treated anyone as a fetish. I doubt the transfolk and genderqueers in my life would still be in my life if I had. Not to mention I know how revolting and creepy it is having been the target of it myself, which makes me even more conscious of NOT treating ANYONE like a fucking fetish, or defining them entirely by one single thing about them.

To be honest, my first response to gender_euphoric's quip at me to "enjoy your fetish" was a resounding "oh FUCK OFF and excuse me for trying to have some discussion around the intricacies of gender identity, sexuality, and attraction, without adhering to YOUR definitions and rules and ideology".

I decided that returning the completely irrelevant, arbitrary and baseless quip was possibly the better option. I'm sorry if it offended you.

But as you say... WHATEVER. Jump right in and make whatever judgements you want.

[quiregrrl]

*yawn*

[fall_of_sophia]

way to be dismissive. creep.

[porn_into_this]

Yeah...I'm not too into that sentence I have to say.

What about men who transitioned during their teenage years? Or suburban football playing stealth dudes? Or sexual-assaulting skeezy ass trans dudes who prey on this idea of trans = safe

But I don't want to accuse anyone of being stupid, I'm just looking for some critical thinking about how that reasoning stands up.

[porn_into_this]

Ah ha ha...I love how these discussions somehow devolve into me saying something like I AM NOT A NICE PERSON I SWEAR TO YOU, DO NOT BE FOOLED BY VAGINA OR MY FEMALE PAST, I CAN BE JUST AS MUCH OF A CHOAD AS ANYONE ELSE