The First Debate
Again... this was originally the core of the counter arguments i had the other day during a debate class activity... which then just grew as i tried to paraphrase them in my last livejournal post...
Debate #1. Should Gays be allowed to be openly gay in the military?
I chose for.
---Argument Against A: Saying that group showers and dorm room/living arrangements would be bad because people wouldn't take it well.
------Me: "We all pretty much know that statistically there are a good number of homosexuals in the air force let alone military. So that being said, you've most likely already been in the shower with gays and there was a chance that you lived in a dorm room with one. If you had a problem with the person in your room simply for their sexual orientation as long as they didn't harass you... it would be the same thing if you had a problem with their race or their religion even if they didn't harass you. Let's say your last roommate was gay and you didn't know... or rather, you did but he didn't harass you at all... with your fear of the difference in them... just like the fear some feel with those of other race... thinking they're going to do something to you... sharing a bedroom... did it hurt?"
------Moderator: "Probably not the best choice of words there" (group laughter)
------Against: "What about if they're openly gay and they're coming onto me or looking at me in the shower?"
------Me: "Just like if a girl were harassing you... you would have the same right to report them for sexual harassment... and then you'd know how it felt like for a good number of woman who go through it every day"
---argument Against B: They're in already willing to break the law.
------Me: "We're arguing the law even being there... there being no need for the 'don't ask, don't tell policy'... we're not arguing whether they should be allowed to stay in even if they break the law. What was the last sin you committed? Was it breaking a rule in your squadron? Was it breaking military law? Or was it you just not being a good person in general? Let the first one without sin cast the first stone. I'm pretty sure a person wanting to show the person they love affection physically is a little more nobler than any other law broken in the military that happens a lot more often. Yet it's those that have broken the not so noble crimes and gotten away with it that feel as though they have a right to act as though they're a better person than the other."
---argument Against C: Saying that we weren't made for homosexual sex... so evolution dictates that it's wrong.
---argument Against D: The bible says it's wrong. (B and C both obviously off topic from "gays in military" to being gay at all... but i went after that one too)
---argument Against E: Gay people are going to be killed if they're open about it.
------Me: "We normally here those using a religion as their main reasoning using the 'we were made this way for a reason' bit... but that doesn't mean it always has to have the religious undertone. In either case religion has NO bearing on this debate whatsoever seeing that the military has strict laws against discrimination based on religion. As for the idea that it's wrong because we were made this way for a reason on it's own... well what does procreation have to do with someones sexual preference other than the fact that one way doesn't permit pregnancy?
Sexual orientation is a preference which is often ignored by those using a religious view point seeing as they like to believe it's a choice... someone can CHOOSE to act straight by having heterosexual sex... but that doesn't change their preference... you can't change what you like and dislike... that's why they're preferences... things you have grown to like from birth... just like anything you like to do... I wasn't built to paint with my feet naked... but that's my preference... and even then we don't know if my genetics influence whether i like to paint with my feet or not... but it could be safe to say that personal experience might have had a hand influencing what i like... what i like to do... yes... i'm still talking about painting with my feet... not someone liking having sex and a relationship with the same sex
you could compare a person that likes pepperoni pizza and someone who like mushroom pizza to straight people and homosexual people... but let's say that to be a vegetarian... which in this case would be let's say... most conservative religions... you can't eat the pepperoni... so what if a vegetarian likes pepperoni? wouldn't that be the same as a homosexual... someone that likes the meat... following a strict religion? isn't that like don't ask, don't tell? you can be gay in your straight marriage... you'll just not be happy with your relationship... wow... that's fair...
oddly enough this is how a lot of families with a homosexual parent in a straight marriage become 'broken'... they're forced into a relationship that they wouldn't be happy with because of the pressures of society (their personal family's and their own religious views)... and they can't take lying to themselves anymore by acting to be something they're not for so long
so basically you can be in the military as long as you act straight... right? the purpose of the law in the military is there because yes... they were afraid there would be more hate crimes... (just like they had when they were slowly allowing more and more non-white people into the service... which even with the rise in hate crimes still ended up helping the mission more than hurting it... and that's even before it helped the anti-racism movement)...
but they also had this law because they wanted a professional appearance... which is referring to homosexual male flamboyancy... but that requirement isn't only directed to homosexuals... it's directed to everyone... you would never walk around base with your shorts half down your ass and your boxers completely showing... something that most associate with a certain demographic... but then again they couldn't come up with a don't ask don't tell for black persons for obvious reasons... seeing as at one time it caused the same problems they're looking at now with homosexuals... 'we won't ask if you're black, and you don't tell us (act as though) you're black'...
so what's the problem in this instance seeing as homosexuals are already in military 'acting straight' by being 'professional'?
well the law was basically a loop hole made so homosexuals could get in...
that's weird... how does that work?
ever heard of a company making a loop hole for someone whom they say they don't want... just so that person could get in?
so we know that doesn't make sense... it's obvious they're on the fence... that this is clearly a compromise made by those that don't want to deal with the repercussions of some kind of social evolution...
it's sort of sad... the land of the free is never the first country to actually have people that are discriminated against given the freedom that they already deserve based on that same concept of freedom...
unless discrimination was always hidden away somewhere in the definition of freedom... maybe i need new glasses before the next time i use a dictionary and i'll laugh at how i've overlooked the word for so long in freedom's definition... you're right... maybe i'm wrong with this ideal... maybe what's going on right now is ok
so let's just say it's not...
1. the law isn't there because of the possible hate crimes... because they're going on right now all over the country... if someone is going to cause a hate crime in the military they shouldn't be in as it is even before homosexuals were allowed to be out of the closet... this would one allow us to be closer to a land of real freedom... free to be whatever religion you want, to have the same freedoms because as woman, the same freedom as someone who was white regardless of your color, and then sexual orientation. Last time i checked the point of marriage was to form a family... hopefully full of love... not just have babies... but then that brings me to my next point...
2. if it's not there for hate crimes... and the whole professionalism bit is out of the way... what else could it be? who else could be apposing this and for what reason?
the only culprit that's left is conservative religion and those with power simply refusing with their ignorance to allow the law be nullified quietly because it goes against THEIR RELIGION despite the reasons they've collected even though all of those have been shown to not be justifiable... which makes it even more apparent that they were looking for reasons to support their discriminating cause rather than having those reasons being the only argument they had... a side of an argument with the mission of the military and the ideals behind the constitution as their primary interest... not basing their actions on beliefs... but rather ideas which have the possibility of changing...
...service before self
...someone putting their own agenda ahead of the world's social and our military's mission
what about integrity first?
they're obviously using these arguments to hide their real driving force... the same driving force that teaches their kids through them... part of the current and the next generation to be close-minded and to separate themselves from those different than them... hence why some white kids are afraid of large black men more than large white men... why someone doesn't care to understand what sexual orientation is ends up being extremely intimidated by someone openly gay sharing a dorm room with them... even if they "act straight"
and both of those air force core values being almost completely disregarded... how is that excellence in all we do?
to be excellent in ALL we do... aren't we supposed to strive to be a better person at all times in more than just military training? a better father? better husband? better friend?... all of those are leaders... we all are leading someone even if we don't realize it...
what kind of example is our military and government showing the world with such examples of discrimination?
i believe in following orders... i believe in mission first... the core values... but i also believe in change... and how it is the only way for things to improve in first us... then through us... our society... otherwise we'd stay stagnant until the end of time...
how can something be excellent if it could be better?
how long does it take for things to improve when after the facts have finally been layed out on the table through logical reasoning?
why would a great nation want to keep itself from becoming greater?"
Debate #1. Should Gays be allowed to be openly gay in the military?
I chose for.
---Argument Against A: Saying that group showers and dorm room/living arrangements would be bad because people wouldn't take it well.
------Me: "We all pretty much know that statistically there are a good number of homosexuals in the air force let alone military. So that being said, you've most likely already been in the shower with gays and there was a chance that you lived in a dorm room with one. If you had a problem with the person in your room simply for their sexual orientation as long as they didn't harass you... it would be the same thing if you had a problem with their race or their religion even if they didn't harass you. Let's say your last roommate was gay and you didn't know... or rather, you did but he didn't harass you at all... with your fear of the difference in them... just like the fear some feel with those of other race... thinking they're going to do something to you... sharing a bedroom... did it hurt?"
------Moderator: "Probably not the best choice of words there" (group laughter)
------Against: "What about if they're openly gay and they're coming onto me or looking at me in the shower?"
------Me: "Just like if a girl were harassing you... you would have the same right to report them for sexual harassment... and then you'd know how it felt like for a good number of woman who go through it every day"
---argument Against B: They're in already willing to break the law.
------Me: "We're arguing the law even being there... there being no need for the 'don't ask, don't tell policy'... we're not arguing whether they should be allowed to stay in even if they break the law. What was the last sin you committed? Was it breaking a rule in your squadron? Was it breaking military law? Or was it you just not being a good person in general? Let the first one without sin cast the first stone. I'm pretty sure a person wanting to show the person they love affection physically is a little more nobler than any other law broken in the military that happens a lot more often. Yet it's those that have broken the not so noble crimes and gotten away with it that feel as though they have a right to act as though they're a better person than the other."
---argument Against C: Saying that we weren't made for homosexual sex... so evolution dictates that it's wrong.
---argument Against D: The bible says it's wrong. (B and C both obviously off topic from "gays in military" to being gay at all... but i went after that one too)
---argument Against E: Gay people are going to be killed if they're open about it.
------Me: "We normally here those using a religion as their main reasoning using the 'we were made this way for a reason' bit... but that doesn't mean it always has to have the religious undertone. In either case religion has NO bearing on this debate whatsoever seeing that the military has strict laws against discrimination based on religion. As for the idea that it's wrong because we were made this way for a reason on it's own... well what does procreation have to do with someones sexual preference other than the fact that one way doesn't permit pregnancy?
Sexual orientation is a preference which is often ignored by those using a religious view point seeing as they like to believe it's a choice... someone can CHOOSE to act straight by having heterosexual sex... but that doesn't change their preference... you can't change what you like and dislike... that's why they're preferences... things you have grown to like from birth... just like anything you like to do... I wasn't built to paint with my feet naked... but that's my preference... and even then we don't know if my genetics influence whether i like to paint with my feet or not... but it could be safe to say that personal experience might have had a hand influencing what i like... what i like to do... yes... i'm still talking about painting with my feet... not someone liking having sex and a relationship with the same sex
you could compare a person that likes pepperoni pizza and someone who like mushroom pizza to straight people and homosexual people... but let's say that to be a vegetarian... which in this case would be let's say... most conservative religions... you can't eat the pepperoni... so what if a vegetarian likes pepperoni? wouldn't that be the same as a homosexual... someone that likes the meat... following a strict religion? isn't that like don't ask, don't tell? you can be gay in your straight marriage... you'll just not be happy with your relationship... wow... that's fair...
oddly enough this is how a lot of families with a homosexual parent in a straight marriage become 'broken'... they're forced into a relationship that they wouldn't be happy with because of the pressures of society (their personal family's and their own religious views)... and they can't take lying to themselves anymore by acting to be something they're not for so long
so basically you can be in the military as long as you act straight... right? the purpose of the law in the military is there because yes... they were afraid there would be more hate crimes... (just like they had when they were slowly allowing more and more non-white people into the service... which even with the rise in hate crimes still ended up helping the mission more than hurting it... and that's even before it helped the anti-racism movement)...
but they also had this law because they wanted a professional appearance... which is referring to homosexual male flamboyancy... but that requirement isn't only directed to homosexuals... it's directed to everyone... you would never walk around base with your shorts half down your ass and your boxers completely showing... something that most associate with a certain demographic... but then again they couldn't come up with a don't ask don't tell for black persons for obvious reasons... seeing as at one time it caused the same problems they're looking at now with homosexuals... 'we won't ask if you're black, and you don't tell us (act as though) you're black'...
so what's the problem in this instance seeing as homosexuals are already in military 'acting straight' by being 'professional'?
well the law was basically a loop hole made so homosexuals could get in...
that's weird... how does that work?
ever heard of a company making a loop hole for someone whom they say they don't want... just so that person could get in?
so we know that doesn't make sense... it's obvious they're on the fence... that this is clearly a compromise made by those that don't want to deal with the repercussions of some kind of social evolution...
it's sort of sad... the land of the free is never the first country to actually have people that are discriminated against given the freedom that they already deserve based on that same concept of freedom...
unless discrimination was always hidden away somewhere in the definition of freedom... maybe i need new glasses before the next time i use a dictionary and i'll laugh at how i've overlooked the word for so long in freedom's definition... you're right... maybe i'm wrong with this ideal... maybe what's going on right now is ok
so let's just say it's not...
1. the law isn't there because of the possible hate crimes... because they're going on right now all over the country... if someone is going to cause a hate crime in the military they shouldn't be in as it is even before homosexuals were allowed to be out of the closet... this would one allow us to be closer to a land of real freedom... free to be whatever religion you want, to have the same freedoms because as woman, the same freedom as someone who was white regardless of your color, and then sexual orientation. Last time i checked the point of marriage was to form a family... hopefully full of love... not just have babies... but then that brings me to my next point...
2. if it's not there for hate crimes... and the whole professionalism bit is out of the way... what else could it be? who else could be apposing this and for what reason?
the only culprit that's left is conservative religion and those with power simply refusing with their ignorance to allow the law be nullified quietly because it goes against THEIR RELIGION despite the reasons they've collected even though all of those have been shown to not be justifiable... which makes it even more apparent that they were looking for reasons to support their discriminating cause rather than having those reasons being the only argument they had... a side of an argument with the mission of the military and the ideals behind the constitution as their primary interest... not basing their actions on beliefs... but rather ideas which have the possibility of changing...
...service before self
...someone putting their own agenda ahead of the world's social and our military's mission
what about integrity first?
they're obviously using these arguments to hide their real driving force... the same driving force that teaches their kids through them... part of the current and the next generation to be close-minded and to separate themselves from those different than them... hence why some white kids are afraid of large black men more than large white men... why someone doesn't care to understand what sexual orientation is ends up being extremely intimidated by someone openly gay sharing a dorm room with them... even if they "act straight"
and both of those air force core values being almost completely disregarded... how is that excellence in all we do?
to be excellent in ALL we do... aren't we supposed to strive to be a better person at all times in more than just military training? a better father? better husband? better friend?... all of those are leaders... we all are leading someone even if we don't realize it...
what kind of example is our military and government showing the world with such examples of discrimination?
i believe in following orders... i believe in mission first... the core values... but i also believe in change... and how it is the only way for things to improve in first us... then through us... our society... otherwise we'd stay stagnant until the end of time...
how can something be excellent if it could be better?
how long does it take for things to improve when after the facts have finally been layed out on the table through logical reasoning?
why would a great nation want to keep itself from becoming greater?"