This continues a pattern of Faith being left outside the Scoobie brain trust. However appealing she may have been when she arrived,...
There is a lot of objectification going on, concerning the Scoobie's view of Faith. Xander objectifies her as a sex symbol, Willow as "the other", Giles as "a slayer" (which becomes ever more clear when discussing Buffy's future after school: He (wants to) see(s) a future for Buffy away from her duty by installing Faith as the slayer-on-the-hellmouth but doesn't stop to think for one second that maybe Faith is a person, too, with dreams and a possible future, too). Oz and Cordelia ar indifferent (Oz because he follows Willow's lead and Cordy because Faith is just another "lowlife" in her eyes). Indifference = not taking fully into account (as a person).
With Buffy it is a bit more complicated, since Buffy overcomes her initial objectification quite easily (Faith as "the rival"), but cannot open up enough or at the right time (and vice versa). But i think we'll see this as we go forward with Your notes.
Objectification is done for the person doing it as well as for the person being subjugated to it. The scoobies do it for personal as well as group dynamic reasons and Faith does pick up on that (she references it directly, albeit without the scientific background, of course).
For Faith, this episode is probably one of the most crucial in the entire series: It is her third try to follow a moral authority, to follow a mentor - and she falls flat on her nose with that the third time in a row. This is the real tragedy, Faith tries to get someone "smarter than her" to guide her, but it fails everytime. She'll try one more time in her life, and, ironically, is successful in her fourth choice - the mayor. The bad guy is the good guy for her. For Faith, it looks like this:
Her first mentor dies because she'S weak, her second mentor already has a protege and doesn't want her, her third mentor betrays and uses her and her fourth mentor cherishes her - but is the ultimate bad guy. Poor Faith!
On Bangel:
I think it cannot be stressed enough that Buffy indeed needs Angel, exactly because of the group dynamics You so wonderfully explained above. That "place for herself" (dark place?), where she shares herself and her burden, isn't the scoobies, unfortunately (there, she's second last on the pecking order - only Faith is lower). That need to be someone whole is, like in season 2, fulfilled by being with Angel. In fact, her need is even more evident and urgent since season 2: The scoobies are further apart from her than ever before. And while You can say Buffy keeping Angel's return a secret is "bad" - it is ultimately rooted exactly in the group dynamics of the scoobies, and the inquisition scene is just exemplary of that (if, as You say, the scoobies had asked her what's going on instead of hurting her and (re-)establishing the pecking order, this whole mess could be avoidable. If Buffy had someone else to shre, to be herself - there wouldn't be a need to compartialize Angel and bond with him).
The utter tragic irony is: Faith could be that someone special Buffy could share herself with. But through objectification, fear, immaturity, group dynamics and the different psychological scars both, Buffy and Faith carry, it becomes a train wreck to happen.
For me, the story of Buffy and Faith is probably the most tragic in the whole of BtVS (especially because it is non-romantic, the tragedy is more profound, deeper and more universal than "tragic love" a la Romeo and Juliet - it is the misunderstanding, wrong time wrong place wrong peer group which leads to depriving both, Buffy and Faith, a companion and friend in the face of the darkness surrounding their lives. Instead of fighting against their (inner) demons together, they become those demons to each other).
Everyone does project what they want to see (or don't want to see) onto Faith, it's true. Because her outward face is such a front, she sort of lets them. I think there's some mutual objectification going on, at least by this point...she doesn't pause to let Giles' possibly life-threatening injury deter her from her mission to go after Angel, and the moment Xander becomes inconvenient she tosses him headfirst into a wall. But it's probably true that they started objectifying her "first." Giles' seeing her as merely "the slayer" hurts the most, because he actually has a duty to be her Watcher and is her only caretaker. But I suppose emotionally he's all tapped out with Buffy and with his big loss of Jenny.
Buffy and Faith really could be there fore each other. And as a slayer, Faith is the one person for whom Buffy's getting back together with Angel could have been less of a disaster to tell her about. She's the one strong enough to defend herself if Angel went bad again, and the only one (besides Oz) who hasn't (up until now) been nearly killed or tortured by Angel (Xander was even nearly killed by him in School Hard, back when he was good!). She has every reason to be the most understanding, so it hurts the most there that Buffy kept Angel from her, and that Faith went after Angel to kill him.
I take the capitalized "You" to refer to the authorship collective, and not to G-d...
Stellar observation on Giles' limited view of Faith.
As for the tragically missed opportunity between Faith and Buffy, I whole-heartedly agree. I even started a comment that those two and Angel could have formed a nice little sub-society, effectively jettisoning the Scoobies, until I realized just how horribly unstable that would be. Would've been interesting though.
Re: Strudel herenorwie2010March 14 2011, 20:57:18 UTC
The question I have, however, is this. If Faith:Buffy was a failed opportunity, what do you make of the failure of this partnership to grow post Season 7? At the time, I thought the two of them reconciled fairly well and was a very strong indication that Buffy was growing. But none of that seem to take very effectively (I say, from my very limited reading of Season 8). Is it simply a matter that by that time, Buffy had so many more Slayers to fit the bill, however aloof and alone she remained among them?
Re: Strudel herenorwie2010March 14 2011, 21:31:39 UTC
We could probably delve deep into the way ME/Whedon tells stories, what kind of stories and: is there continuity?
The way i see it, Buffy and Faith are, as of season 7, in a place where they both could start to reconcile, reconnect and maybe overcome their bad past. They've both grown a lot. There are still a lot of bad feelings, but also respect, which is the best groundwork to lay a lasting relationship and repair the damage.
Alas, the author doesn't see a good story opportunity here, hence both characters - as well as their relationship - regress in season 8 to be able to tell more stories (of the misunderstanding/heartbreak/teenage variant).
And then Faith gets shipped off to serve Angel (i cannot tell You how mad i am at this development. All the beautiful possible stories - about Faith, or Buffy and Faith - get thrown in the trashcan to give us the nth redux of Angel's manpain and pick up on a storyline that was good for Faith, but somewhat icky in the wider sense of cultural mainstream).
So, while in theory Buffy and Faith could very well pick up the shards of their sisterhood (and decide that sister are doin' it for themselves and not the gents) and get going forward (instead being stuck in their past) - that's not the story we'll get, i assume.
But who knows? Since season 9 has only a minimal chance to get truly worse than season 8 - Faith, Hope and Trick! Perhaps the mentioned "crossovers" are meaning something.
Re: Strudel here2maggie2March 15 2011, 00:45:25 UTC
Somehow it seems right to me that the 'partnership' in season 7 was only temporary on account of impending world end. Once Buffy has projected her own dark matter onto Faith there really can't be a healthy relationship between them. And what NFFY does smashingly is show that indeed, Buffy has projected her dark matter onto Faith.
Re: Strudel herenorwie2010March 15 2011, 08:30:30 UTC
Well, i said it a year ago: Whendon deliberatly regressed all the characters (apart from "stand in guy" Xander) to be able to tell his kind of stories in the comics. it is what i hate most about the comics: the regression back into season 3 territory, the pissing all over seasons 2, 6 and 7. Don't get me wrong, i have no love for B/A - but season 2 and the B/A relations didn't deserve that.
Re: Strudel here2maggie2March 15 2011, 15:50:30 UTC
I don't see anyone being regressed. Certainly neither Xander or Willow are back to their season 3 selves. Dawn is growing up. They all make good sense as continuities from the show. I'm not surprised that Faith would end up where she was following a break up with Robin, and Buffy's fame as The Slayer. And Buffy makes sense if you think of her as being swept up by something bigger than herself. If I could handle the NFFY threads over at slay alive, I'd argue that Buffy's leap to assuming Faith is guilty is just reveals her own sense of guilt. She's projecting her dark matter onto Faith. She has a lot of it in season 8. She didn't have so much in season 7 so they did OK.
The only questionable call is Angel - but I'm willing to wait to hear the rest of the story before making a judgment on that.
Re: Strudel hereangeariaMarch 20 2011, 20:38:06 UTC
And what NFFY does smashingly is show that indeed, Buffy has projected her dark matter onto Faith.
And vice versa. The scene where Faith drowns Buffy is all about Faith projecting her dark matter onto Buffy, nearly going so far over the edge that she murders her. NFFY is as much about Faith projecting herself onto others, her dark matter and her light, as it is about Buffy projecting her dark matter onto Faith. NFFY gives us a Faith who's lost her sense of cool that she acquired from prison, probably because slaying is so hard on her (she's not able to compartmentalize her perpetuation of violence easily, killing vampires who look like children drives home how slaying, even when it's right, haunts her).
I hope it's okay to bring this up. I know we were kinda butting heads on this before, but I really think it's important how NFFY is about Buffy and Faith projecting themselves. Faith lets go of that when she reaches the moment of catharsis in attempting to drown Buffy and finally learning to control the voice inside, no doubt born from trauma, so that she can stop lashing out. The way she stabs Giles with a fork is foreshadowing for the monumentally larger angst inside her that she feels when confronted by Buffy as her mirror (of not good enough).
Re: Strudel herenorwie2010March 14 2011, 21:34:52 UTC
I even started a comment that those two and Angel could have formed a nice little sub-society, effectively jettisoning the Scoobies, until I realized just how horribly unstable that would be. Would've been interesting though.
Hr hr. You like a trainwreck to happen, don't You? :D
The healthy thing would have been to invite Faith into the scoobies and Buffy and Faith forming a subgroup for their special burdens. Angel? Pfft... (Go brood some more and never, ever get the urge to be a "champion", please!)
This continues a pattern of Faith being left outside the Scoobie brain trust. However appealing she may have been when she arrived,...
There is a lot of objectification going on, concerning the Scoobie's view of Faith. Xander objectifies her as a sex symbol, Willow as "the other", Giles as "a slayer" (which becomes ever more clear when discussing Buffy's future after school: He (wants to) see(s) a future for Buffy away from her duty by installing Faith as the slayer-on-the-hellmouth but doesn't stop to think for one second that maybe Faith is a person, too, with dreams and a possible future, too). Oz and Cordelia ar indifferent (Oz because he follows Willow's lead and Cordy because Faith is just another "lowlife" in her eyes). Indifference = not taking fully into account (as a person).
With Buffy it is a bit more complicated, since Buffy overcomes her initial objectification quite easily (Faith as "the rival"), but cannot open up enough or at the right time (and vice versa). But i think we'll see this as we go forward with Your notes.
Objectification is done for the person doing it as well as for the person being subjugated to it. The scoobies do it for personal as well as group dynamic reasons and Faith does pick up on that (she references it directly, albeit without the scientific background, of course).
For Faith, this episode is probably one of the most crucial in the entire series: It is her third try to follow a moral authority, to follow a mentor - and she falls flat on her nose with that the third time in a row. This is the real tragedy, Faith tries to get someone "smarter than her" to guide her, but it fails everytime. She'll try one more time in her life, and, ironically, is successful in her fourth choice - the mayor. The bad guy is the good guy for her. For Faith, it looks like this:
Her first mentor dies because she'S weak, her second mentor already has a protege and doesn't want her, her third mentor betrays and uses her and her fourth mentor cherishes her - but is the ultimate bad guy. Poor Faith!
On Bangel:
I think it cannot be stressed enough that Buffy indeed needs Angel, exactly because of the group dynamics You so wonderfully explained above. That "place for herself" (dark place?), where she shares herself and her burden, isn't the scoobies, unfortunately (there, she's second last on the pecking order - only Faith is lower). That need to be someone whole is, like in season 2, fulfilled by being with Angel. In fact, her need is even more evident and urgent since season 2: The scoobies are further apart from her than ever before. And while You can say Buffy keeping Angel's return a secret is "bad" - it is ultimately rooted exactly in the group dynamics of the scoobies, and the inquisition scene is just exemplary of that (if, as You say, the scoobies had asked her what's going on instead of hurting her and (re-)establishing the pecking order, this whole mess could be avoidable. If Buffy had someone else to shre, to be herself - there wouldn't be a need to compartialize Angel and bond with him).
The utter tragic irony is: Faith could be that someone special Buffy could share herself with. But through objectification, fear, immaturity, group dynamics and the different psychological scars both, Buffy and Faith carry, it becomes a train wreck to happen.
For me, the story of Buffy and Faith is probably the most tragic in the whole of BtVS (especially because it is non-romantic, the tragedy is more profound, deeper and more universal than "tragic love" a la Romeo and Juliet - it is the misunderstanding, wrong time wrong place wrong peer group which leads to depriving both, Buffy and Faith, a companion and friend in the face of the darkness surrounding their lives. Instead of fighting against their (inner) demons together, they become those demons to each other).
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Buffy and Faith really could be there fore each other. And as a slayer, Faith is the one person for whom Buffy's getting back together with Angel could have been less of a disaster to tell her about. She's the one strong enough to defend herself if Angel went bad again, and the only one (besides Oz) who hasn't (up until now) been nearly killed or tortured by Angel (Xander was even nearly killed by him in School Hard, back when he was good!). She has every reason to be the most understanding, so it hurts the most there that Buffy kept Angel from her, and that Faith went after Angel to kill him.
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Uh-uh....
When was that?
:-P
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Stellar observation on Giles' limited view of Faith.
As for the tragically missed opportunity between Faith and Buffy, I whole-heartedly agree. I even started a comment that those two and Angel could have formed a nice little sub-society, effectively jettisoning the Scoobies, until I realized just how horribly unstable that would be. Would've been interesting though.
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The way i see it, Buffy and Faith are, as of season 7, in a place where they both could start to reconcile, reconnect and maybe overcome their bad past. They've both grown a lot. There are still a lot of bad feelings, but also respect, which is the best groundwork to lay a lasting relationship and repair the damage.
Alas, the author doesn't see a good story opportunity here, hence both characters - as well as their relationship - regress in season 8 to be able to tell more stories (of the misunderstanding/heartbreak/teenage variant).
And then Faith gets shipped off to serve Angel (i cannot tell You how mad i am at this development. All the beautiful possible stories - about Faith, or Buffy and Faith - get thrown in the trashcan to give us the nth redux of Angel's manpain and pick up on a storyline that was good for Faith, but somewhat icky in the wider sense of cultural mainstream).
So, while in theory Buffy and Faith could very well pick up the shards of their sisterhood (and decide that sister are doin' it for themselves and not the gents) and get going forward (instead being stuck in their past) - that's not the story we'll get, i assume.
But who knows? Since season 9 has only a minimal chance to get truly worse than season 8 - Faith, Hope and Trick! Perhaps the mentioned "crossovers" are meaning something.
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dratted comix.
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The only questionable call is Angel - but I'm willing to wait to hear the rest of the story before making a judgment on that.
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And vice versa. The scene where Faith drowns Buffy is all about Faith projecting her dark matter onto Buffy, nearly going so far over the edge that she murders her. NFFY is as much about Faith projecting herself onto others, her dark matter and her light, as it is about Buffy projecting her dark matter onto Faith. NFFY gives us a Faith who's lost her sense of cool that she acquired from prison, probably because slaying is so hard on her (she's not able to compartmentalize her perpetuation of violence easily, killing vampires who look like children drives home how slaying, even when it's right, haunts her).
I hope it's okay to bring this up. I know we were kinda butting heads on this before, but I really think it's important how NFFY is about Buffy and Faith projecting themselves. Faith lets go of that when she reaches the moment of catharsis in attempting to drown Buffy and finally learning to control the voice inside, no doubt born from trauma, so that she can stop lashing out. The way she stabs Giles with a fork is foreshadowing for the monumentally larger angst inside her that she feels when confronted by Buffy as her mirror (of not good enough).
"You become me." <-- Buffy & Faith
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Uh, what?
In my language, to capitalize when writing to someone is the polite thing to do...
But, uh, whatever delusions of grandeur float Your boat. :-P
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Hr hr. You like a trainwreck to happen, don't You? :D
The healthy thing would have been to invite Faith into the scoobies and Buffy and Faith forming a subgroup for their special burdens. Angel? Pfft... (Go brood some more and never, ever get the urge to be a "champion", please!)
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