Season 8: The Status of Being Beneath Her and Not Being Invited In

[2maggie2]

Two of the iconic ways Buffy asserted her position in the relationship at Spike's expense was when she said he was beneath her and when she revoked his invitation.  Both of those moments have been invoked in the comics.  Below an argument about why this isn't a callous repeat of some hurtful moments, but rather an upending of then.

Comments

[ms_scarletibis]

Interesting points (and I think all of your points are interesting and thought provoking, for the record), but I just can't see it...

Buffy and Angel may think they're above everyone else (and most especially Spike). But they are actually the creeps in the text -- the ones who deserve to be knocked down onto the floor in contempt...The line here is a commentary on Buffy, not on Spike. Nor is she saying anything about Spike being beneath her. She's telling Angel that his jealousy is beneath him.

Commentary aside, it is in fact the character of Buffy that is the issue--she does not realize that she is in fact the creep here, and the comment to Angel implied that it's beneath Angel to be jealous of someone who can't hold a candle to him.

Second, we don't get anything like a wounded puppy dog look from Spike. He gripes about it -- it's a pain cause it means he has to crawl around. And it seems to be part of the reason he thinks Buffy is being weird. But there's not a hint that he's hurt by it, or even reads it as a rejection.

[2maggie2]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I do think it's a mistake to read this as though nothing has changed. (I can see why people would see it that way -- I just really truly honestly don't think that's what Joss is doing here. Quite the reverse

[angearia]

Like I said, I think it's a mistake to read it as though it were some repeat of her old superiority complex.

Just wanted to toss this out there. Buffy doesn't have a superiority complex. She has an inferiority complex, the facets of which can indeed look like a superiority complex (but that's overcompensation). If she genuinely had a superiority complex, she wouldn't care what other people thought about her and she so clearly does care. In some ways, Buffy is a slave to the fear that her friends will discover there's something wrong with her.

The root of her character is insecurity. Superiority is the camouflage.

(I can't take credit for this idea. Blackfrancine really laid it out beautifully. 'Inferiority complex about her superiority complex' sounds cool, but it's not how it works.)

If you think about when she says, "I am the law," it's with a note of despair. She hates that being the Slayer makes her feel superior, makes her feel different, and that the situations she's pushed into lead to her standing over people

[2maggie2]

I agree Buffy's superiority complex is complex! But she did think of herself as flat superior to Spike, imo. That changes in season 7; maybe even in seasn 6. But in FFL? She means it.

[2maggie2]

Thanks! And I totally agree about the come on that is veiled as a not come on. It's so exactly how Buffy would do that, btw. And I agree that Spike almost certainly does have feelings -- but he's a master of them now and Buffy surely doesn't see that they are there. Or at least she's terrified that they're not, which is why she's so very coy about trying to get him to tip his hand.

[angearia]

Rebcake notes below how Spike had started guarding his feelings even back in Season 7. Which makes me think that it does naturally extend from there. Since in Season 7, Buffy was the pursuer, imo.

what a turn-on it is for Buffy (and anyone else) to hear that her suitor is his own person and doesn't need her around.

In Season 7, Spike says he thinks he should go. Buffy's the one who says she needs him around. Hmm.

[moscow_watcher]

The question is not whether she loves him. The question is now whether he loves her. We dont have a shred of evidence that he does.

... except that basic, primary notion that it's a Buffy show, ergo all characters here are all.about.her.

And neither does Buffy. And that bugs her.

Oh, certainly. Buffy always strives for unattainable. The less Spike looks interested in her, the more actively she'll pursue him :)))

[2maggie2]

I agree -- we can be pretty sure he's still into her. But we haven't been shown it in any clear way, and Buffy for sure hasn't.

Totally agree that it's part of Spike's current appeal to her!

[francy_m79]

*brings the romance icon*

Very interesting and thought-provoking thoughts, as always! Your analysis definetely makes sense!

OT
I think the problem for me (and many other people) is that comic!Spuffy (or the comics in general, maybe?) is difficult to interpret. The writing for the ship was always subtle on the show, but with the transition to comic form and the lack of real actors the scenes come across more ambiguously.

Everything Spuffy-wise is very uncertain and open to interpretation ... which after a while starts to frustrate the people who need a few confirmations, once in a while. I know I do... It's also true that, in this way, Joss is keeping Spike and Buffy and their relationship very interesting, and with many possible directions to go from here.

/OT

[francy_m79]

I did! You're welcome to it! ;)

[2maggie2]

I can see that we're losing a lot by having lost the actors. But I also think that what's happening is that people are looking at this through the lens of a years-long shipper battle. Would these scenes convince a Bangel that Buffy loves Spike? No. Ergo, it's not enough. But if you don't read through that lens, I think you come down where folks like Vampmogs and Simon do -- "hey, there's something interesting cooking here after all."

[aycheb]

Never did get the freakouts on Spike's behalf over Buffy telling *Angel* he was beneath himself in #36. As for any disinvitational subtext, Spike complains at the beginning of the scene that he hasn't been invited in yet, so technically he can't be disinvited. I read it more as a fresh start, erasure of history thing. I think Buffy's likely burned out on romance after Satsu then Xander then Angel/Twilight. The seed is broken and whatever switch had been tuned on in her head is off now. I wouldn't say her telling him he's not invited is an attempt to provoke a declaration any more than Spike asking to be let in at the beginning is. They balance each other out. Whether she loves him, whether he loves her just seems like the wrong question. It's different from S7 (and Spike wasn't exactly permanent heart on sleeve guy then). He has feelings or he wouldn't keep dropping by. She has feelings or she wouldn't keep answering the window. It feels now as if it's more about whether they can be friends. Not ex-lovers, friends.

[2maggie2]

Disinvited/not originally invited -- I wasn't making any distinction there.

I don't think it's an erasure, though. Because it's invoking a key moment of their history, forcing it back onto stage. She'd erase it by inviting him in and not making any deal of it.

Agree, though, that while I think Buffy is fishing for evidence that he's still all about her, she also isn't remotely interested in jumping into that pond at the moment. I think that's part of her current weirdness.

But it is weird, and that's why I don't see it as the exercise in pure platonic friendship that you seem to see, either. She has non-platonic feelings (see #37). She wants to know he does too AND she doesn't want to do anything about it at the moment.

[aycheb]

I don't think it's an erasure, though. Because it's invoking a key moment of their history, forcing it back onto stage. She'd erase it by inviting him in and not making any deal of it.
I think that's your Spike POV coming through. Buffy inviting him would erase her disinviting him in Crush. But their history began before then and before spike was aware he was in love with her (or was in love with her). Right now they're at the pre-becoming stage it's as it would be if they'd only just met. That's what I meant by a fresh start.

But it is weird, and that's why I don't see it as the exercise in pure platonic friendship that you seem to see, either.I phrased it badly. I didn't meant that platonic friendship was all they should have. I meant they need to see if that can work and this is a rare opportunity to do so before the big headline grabbing emotions come rushing back in. A breathing space. if I were Buffy (and I'm Buffy a lot) I wouldn't want to know whether Spike was all about me. Maybe in time but it's all too intense for where I

[2maggie2]

I think Buffy knew what the disinvite meant to Spike back in season 5. Her tone when she invited him back in said she knew; and of course he flat told her. Invite/disinvite wasn't an issue in season 2, sso I just don't see them erasing back to there. Though I don't disagree that what's in mind here is some reset. I just think it's doing so by picking up some of their history and retranscribing it into a new key.

I don't disagree with your second point either. I'd just nuance it more. Buffy certainly doesn't want to get romantic now. I think she does want the breathing space. But I think she's also probing to see if that other thing is still available, in principle. So basically I see your motive as being in play, but mine as well. We agree that she's not angling for a date right this minute or even any time soon or even as a promise now for things to come. Just some vague 'it's still there' vibe.