The Longest Comment Ever
So, I was on another person's lj reading their thoughts, and all the following discussion, about the whole Jack/Ianto, Jack/Gwen, Jack's relationships with men vs. women, who loves who more, monogamy vs. polygamy, shagging vs. serious relationship thing.
(If you'd like to participate in the discussion youself it's here http://tencrush.livejournal.com/94516.html?view=613684#t613684 )
And I started a comment that went on...and on...and on. So long I had to post it in 2 parts. Since I spent so much time on it I thought about posting it in my own journal, and then spade told me I had no choice (enjoy honey!). Apparently I had some stuff I needed to process, but like always it's just my take. And you get what you pay for.
ETA: I forgot. Spoiler warning of course.
I find this whole thing interesting, and while I share the frustration of those who would like to see some deeper and more emotional interactions between Jack and Ianto, since we haven't had any since Adam other that Ianto's clarification to Owen, I don't really share the general pessimism that seems to be going around on the subject (yet). Why? Well, here are a few of my thoughts on the issue.
I was surprised to see people getting so upset about he "dabbling" line. To me, Ianto was being asked about a very personal thing by someone he barely knows. He has no idea how to react. He is surprised by her question, probably surprised that Jack mentioned him specifically to her, and not knowing her has no idea how she would react to a relationship between he and Jack. Disgust? Jealousy? I heard the dabbling bit as simply an off-handed reply to try and deflect the personal question. Cause right after that when Martha seems utterly delighted by the prospect and asks "yeah?" you and watch him physically relax and answer with a much more confident and secure "Yeah." clearly stating to Martha that yes he and Jack are seeing one another.
The whole "Doing Pizza and Ianto" thing is just Jack. A reflection of his continual need to stick sexual references into every conversation he has (not one of my favorite traits) as well as his habit of deflecting any conversation that could lead to him having to actually share something personal about himself with anyone. Which brings me to the 2 major things that people seem to not be taking into consideration about Jack & Ianto:
A) Jack is a broken man. He puts on the heroic, "I'm in control and nothing bothers me" front, but the truth is Jack is terribly insecure and needy, he has horrific abandonment issues and, in many ways, I believe he thinks he has nothing to offer anyone. He trys to protect himself from all these things through off-handed banter, turning everything into a punchline, being as mysterious as possible and keeping people at an emotional distance. The fact that Ianto even gets him to agree to try more than just shagging is a minor miracle.
Gwen is important to Jack and always will be because she has been the catalyst in helping Jack realize that cutting himself off emotionally to keep himself safe or to better deal with the job isn't working. For him or for the people he is trying to protect. She has also been, since her engagement, a constant reminder of what was (I would guess)one of the biggest relationship disasters and heart breaks of Jack's life. And based on what we know about Jack's personality, I'm sure what he regards as one of his biggest failures or areas of inadequacy (I say this cause based on the time period of the wedding photo I'm thinking that may have been when he realized his immortality). Jack's immortality will NEVER allow him to have the life that Gwen and Rhys will have. And after having cut himself off emotionally for so long, Jack is mourning that all over again. What does he have to offer anyone? How can he open himself up to anyone knowing he WILL lose them? All those things he lists to Gwen as reasons Rhys will be such a good husband are things he doubts that he will ever be able to offer anyone. He is a truly broken man.
B) No one seems to be giving Ianto enough credit. Why is there this assumption that Ianto is madly, puppy love crazy about Jack? Were there scenes where Ianto started bringing Jack flowers and candy and writing sonnets about his undying love that I missed? It is clear that Ianto is very fond of Jack and cares about him on a deeper level, and there is basically his statement that he wants an opportunity to get to know him better and expects the same in return when Jack asks him out, but I think that people too often cross the devotion and loyalty of Ianto's working relationship with Jack and his personal one. Employee Ianto worships Jack. He would do anything for him. Follow any order, lay down his life, defend Jack to the end. Personal Ianto has plenty of his own emotional baggage and he knows it. He also knows Jack. Ianto wants it to be more than shagging because, while that got them through a tough time, it does neither of them any good in the long run. There has to be an openness to something more or it isn't healthy for either of them. It's just them hiding from themselves. At the beginning of season 2 Ianto has decided he is ready to start trying to reach out again emotionally and if Jack still wants to be with him, he expects Jack to at least try too.
Yeah, I want to see more emotional development (and hopefully we are gonna get some coming up), but these are 2 dysfunctional people working on something that is going to take serious time and patience if it's going to work at all. I don't know that either of them expect to succeed, but I think they both know they have to try.
And yes, I know I still owe a review of the last ep. I'm working on it.
(If you'd like to participate in the discussion youself it's here http://tencrush.livejournal.com/94516.html?view=613684#t613684 )
And I started a comment that went on...and on...and on. So long I had to post it in 2 parts. Since I spent so much time on it I thought about posting it in my own journal, and then spade told me I had no choice (enjoy honey!). Apparently I had some stuff I needed to process, but like always it's just my take. And you get what you pay for.
ETA: I forgot. Spoiler warning of course.
I find this whole thing interesting, and while I share the frustration of those who would like to see some deeper and more emotional interactions between Jack and Ianto, since we haven't had any since Adam other that Ianto's clarification to Owen, I don't really share the general pessimism that seems to be going around on the subject (yet). Why? Well, here are a few of my thoughts on the issue.
I was surprised to see people getting so upset about he "dabbling" line. To me, Ianto was being asked about a very personal thing by someone he barely knows. He has no idea how to react. He is surprised by her question, probably surprised that Jack mentioned him specifically to her, and not knowing her has no idea how she would react to a relationship between he and Jack. Disgust? Jealousy? I heard the dabbling bit as simply an off-handed reply to try and deflect the personal question. Cause right after that when Martha seems utterly delighted by the prospect and asks "yeah?" you and watch him physically relax and answer with a much more confident and secure "Yeah." clearly stating to Martha that yes he and Jack are seeing one another.
The whole "Doing Pizza and Ianto" thing is just Jack. A reflection of his continual need to stick sexual references into every conversation he has (not one of my favorite traits) as well as his habit of deflecting any conversation that could lead to him having to actually share something personal about himself with anyone. Which brings me to the 2 major things that people seem to not be taking into consideration about Jack & Ianto:
A) Jack is a broken man. He puts on the heroic, "I'm in control and nothing bothers me" front, but the truth is Jack is terribly insecure and needy, he has horrific abandonment issues and, in many ways, I believe he thinks he has nothing to offer anyone. He trys to protect himself from all these things through off-handed banter, turning everything into a punchline, being as mysterious as possible and keeping people at an emotional distance. The fact that Ianto even gets him to agree to try more than just shagging is a minor miracle.
Gwen is important to Jack and always will be because she has been the catalyst in helping Jack realize that cutting himself off emotionally to keep himself safe or to better deal with the job isn't working. For him or for the people he is trying to protect. She has also been, since her engagement, a constant reminder of what was (I would guess)one of the biggest relationship disasters and heart breaks of Jack's life. And based on what we know about Jack's personality, I'm sure what he regards as one of his biggest failures or areas of inadequacy (I say this cause based on the time period of the wedding photo I'm thinking that may have been when he realized his immortality). Jack's immortality will NEVER allow him to have the life that Gwen and Rhys will have. And after having cut himself off emotionally for so long, Jack is mourning that all over again. What does he have to offer anyone? How can he open himself up to anyone knowing he WILL lose them? All those things he lists to Gwen as reasons Rhys will be such a good husband are things he doubts that he will ever be able to offer anyone. He is a truly broken man.
B) No one seems to be giving Ianto enough credit. Why is there this assumption that Ianto is madly, puppy love crazy about Jack? Were there scenes where Ianto started bringing Jack flowers and candy and writing sonnets about his undying love that I missed? It is clear that Ianto is very fond of Jack and cares about him on a deeper level, and there is basically his statement that he wants an opportunity to get to know him better and expects the same in return when Jack asks him out, but I think that people too often cross the devotion and loyalty of Ianto's working relationship with Jack and his personal one. Employee Ianto worships Jack. He would do anything for him. Follow any order, lay down his life, defend Jack to the end. Personal Ianto has plenty of his own emotional baggage and he knows it. He also knows Jack. Ianto wants it to be more than shagging because, while that got them through a tough time, it does neither of them any good in the long run. There has to be an openness to something more or it isn't healthy for either of them. It's just them hiding from themselves. At the beginning of season 2 Ianto has decided he is ready to start trying to reach out again emotionally and if Jack still wants to be with him, he expects Jack to at least try too.
Yeah, I want to see more emotional development (and hopefully we are gonna get some coming up), but these are 2 dysfunctional people working on something that is going to take serious time and patience if it's going to work at all. I don't know that either of them expect to succeed, but I think they both know they have to try.
And yes, I know I still owe a review of the last ep. I'm working on it.